[BTS] Stumbling back at Deity

[Pangaea]

When I wrote that I had already played a bit further, and whipped like a crazy person. At some point I ofc eased off and started building Wealth instead, and we had more units than was needed. But it's a lot of fun to see so many horses trampling around everywhere

Spoiler :

War on Wang was declared, and incidentally I got an answer to the previous vassalage question:

Spoiler :

Mansa was the one that nailed Taj Mahal. But at least we got 300 failgold out of it, which helped us limp to Rifling.

We probably don't need a whole lot more Cuirs, but you know... CUIRS!

Spoiler :

After Wang, it was Mansa's turn. But I also intended to open up a second front of sorts, by attacking Gilgamesh from two directions. Here Mansa turned up with a big but inferior stack.

Spoiler :

Caught me by surprise as I was about to attack Kumbi Saleh, but we had enough fit units nearby to kill most of them. Important to be careful with river crossings, because the game isn't.

Lost some units on Mansa because he got tough Muskets, but we were able to upgrade to some Cavalry before declaring on Gilgamesh. 41 Cuirs + 9 Cavalry are bearing down on him.

He was willing to cap after just taking Nibru, but I tried to grab what we could. He had 14 units, including 7-ish Maces, in Awdaghost, which he previously captured from Mansa. Managed to punch through, though, which I was pleased about.

Spoiler :

Unfortunately I forgot about the second front stack outside Ur. Capped him before getting to those units. Could have gotten some more points, but oh well.

Spoiler :

Next turn we secure a Conquest win. Didn't quite get up to enough percentage for land to be in contention for Domination as well.

Spoiler :

Killed units. Many longbows.

Spoiler :

Pretty respectable score I'd say.

Spoiler :

The endgame usually isn't as interesting to read about as the early phases, but hopefully some still found it useful. The savegame doesn't show a whole lot apart from cities growing back onto good tiles again. Thebes became size 19 in the end. It grew steadily once it finally got both corns.

Fair to say that War Chariots can be incredibly strong. Set me up for a strong and early finish here. Really goes to show the power of snowballing. As a result, this actually didn't feel like a Deity game. Well, apart from the very beginning. Barbs are nasty, and the AIs expand very fast. Looking at the post-game history, Stalin settled everything in my direction pretty much. Which kinda sealed his fate

 

[soundjata]

I guess the way the game may have been solved between 2014 and 2021 is really about unit mass.
Not city management.
My point about grassland farms was exclusively about city management.

BIC for as long as I remember, this game has always been solved with unit mass.
Research Astro, build 254786 galleons and cuirassiers and executives. Move them around.
Are you refering to sim city or what

 

[BornInCantaloup]

BIC for as long as I remember, this game has always been solved with unit mass.
Research Astro, build 254786 galleons and cuirassiers and executives. Move them around.
Are you refering to sim city or what

I kiss you.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

When I wrote that I had already played a bit further, and whipped like a crazy person.

Well played, nice wrapping up

 

[Pangaea]

You can already bribe Gilgamesh on Mansa or Wang. Isabella would agree to a bribe against Mansa.
Timbuktu has the AP, which is the main concern in a war with Wang.

Just to comment on this: While playing I looked over bribe options, and like you observed, there are some possibilities. It was quite expensive however, and the way I looked at it, I'm going to kill them all anyway, so didn't want to give them key techs that could make that more difficult, especially if it got traded around (hello Mansa!). So in the end I didn't use any bribes. Gilgamesh did beg for Education at some point, however, which I gave him, giving a 10-turn peace treaty. Ended up working out really well, as it expired about 1 turn before we were ready to declare on him. I declared one turn before I had enough units in place btw, figuring he'd probably invade and then I could let Mansa deal with it. That kinda happened, but not as fully as hoped. Awdaghost was still packed full of units, but maybe half had clashed with random Malinese units nearby. So it did help a little.

I too looked at settling a city, both near that jungled rice and elsewhere, but never found the time to prioritise settlers. It was kinda pointless at that point in the game anyway, and it also turned out that Wang's culture covered much of the jungle, where it made most sense to settle anyhow. But moving through wasn't as horrible as it would have been earlier in the game, due to Wang finally having roaded through the jungle. Since his culture didn't cover everything, those roads made it easier for us.

 

[Fish Man]

Congrats on the win!!!

 

[Pangaea]

GAME TWO!

I'm feeling completely beat up today from moving apartments, with great timing with the elevator not working and needing to carry furniture down 6 flights of stairs, being bruised and blue all over. Sounds like a perfect way to start another Deity game, already beat up!

First roll was Cyrus, another Chariot specialist, so figured I'd try again.

Same settings as before: Fractal, medium sea level, tropical, 6 random AIs, Deity.

And we draw...

Spoiler :

ALEXANDER!

 

[Pangaea]

Starting techs isn't great (Fishing, Hunting), but at least we get a shortcut to Archery if needed, and also a bonus on AH later. Coastal start without seafood isn't great either, so I'm thinking of going inland a little. 1N or 1NE looks good, and I'm probably leaning towards 1N so we get more forests. Means a turn more moving to the corn, but for a stronger capital that is okay I think. Helps with fogbusting too. The PH could be an option (2W), but again that seems like a poor choice given that area looks free for backfilling.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Fippy]

1ne would would keep the mystery tile 1se of spices and grabs more fog, but 1n keeps one tile too..can the scout look at 3n of him if hugging coast?

 

[Pangaea]

There is also a naked mystery tile 2N2W of current settler position, which would be grabbed with 1N. But it's also possible that SE of corn is a mystery tile which may contain something good. However, moving northwards will enable a city down on the coast, which could also be useful, particularly if there happens to be seafood down there. Looks like 1N also enables a city on the west coast, but naturally that also applies to SIP.

Maybe move the scout 1W then 1N? Looks like the tile north of that is naked, so he'd be able to move further north next turn. Presumably AIs are close to our north and east.

 

[Pangaea]

Looks like the reception or feedback here was a bit flat, but since I got busy with BOTM games, maybe it's best to let this sit a while longer and see if others pipe up with some comments. Otherwise I'll probably try to settle 1N or NE and see what happens early on. Agri first makes sense ofc.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Oh... I was all ready to go back to the long sleep.
And then I read this.
I wouldn't SIP. To me, it's between 1N1E and 1E. 1E has that extra commerce and retains the 2 grassland tiles 2S of the starting position.
A standard starting position has 4 resources (including aluminium and such), so.... I don't know, I'd start moving 1N1E, possibly settle 1E.
Too bad the scout can't reveal anything relevant.

This is a guessing game. No way to tell what tile is best. I kinda hate those starts.

There is also a naked mystery tile 2N2W of current settler position

Isn't that forested ?

 

[Pangaea]

Isn't that forested ?

It shows better in-game I suppose, but no, that tile is naked. Could have something nice, and it may just be naked.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I played some 50 turns (minor spoilers below - no pics) :

Spoiler :

I ended up settling 1W.
The start is rather poor and commerce is a concern. Fortunately/hopefully, the jungle belt will act as a buffer against the AIs' expansion, which means that there is no rush to expand.
Techs went : Agri, AH, The Wheel (!), Pottery (!!), Mining, Bronze Working.
I started a settler at size 2 and claimed horses with city 2.

I have 2 cities and 2 workers by 2000 BC, 2 warriors and a chariot. The 3rd worker and the settler for city 3 are in the process of being done.
I am contemplating a certain wonder (requires Sailing and Masonry) but probably don't have a reasonable shot.
I dismissed an early Writing on the grounds that Alex is no Pericles.The Odeon is a tremendous building and bulbing Maths is a real option with those guys.

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks, I'll have to postpone reading that until later then. I've not moved a single unit yet

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Thanks, I'll have to postpone reading that until later then. I've not moved a single unit yet

No worries, you can play and stop whenever you feel like it / have the time, attention & energy.
I've stopped on T54 because options but there are actually several decision points before then.

 

[Pangaea]

Figured I should start at least, and see what happens in the early turns. I've now stopped in T10, as there is a tech decision to make.

Spoiler :

Scout moves W->N and sees pigs. Very nice. But moving to the coast feels wrong here, as we increase the risk of getting squeezed for land. I then move the settler NE. Doesn't tell me anything more, and I settle there, crossing my fingers for something to come in from the fog.

Spoiler :

Sadly missed a banana, but otherwise okay. Couldn't have farmed it anyway, so it hurts less then.

I started with Agri ofc, and a worker, and sent the scout further north along the coast. Pretty soon he runs into much jungle, so I send him eastwards. I did think about sending him back down south to fogbust, but guess it felt a bit early.

Oh, also took demographics screenies. 30k power is Mansa? I always forget those things. No CRE civs from what I could tell though, as there was no big land spike in T3. Buddhism went in T9, so there is at least one Mysticism civ.

Spoiler :

T1 demographics:

T3 demographics:

Didn't meet an AI pre-turn 5, so no slight bonus on postponing picking a tech until then. Bismarck shows up in T6, and I just ran into one of Pacal's scout in T10. Changed EPS to Pacal, as I think he may be a better techer. Bismarck is more of a dangerous military opportunist. They have EPs on others, so there are more civs on the continent, but I haven't found them yet. Haven't spotted any cultural borders yet either (with the zooming out trick).

Overview map with comments below

Spoiler :

I've marked two good locations to the west, though ofc the southern one must be changed if there is seafood. Between rice and pigs is an excellent second city, but in the wrong direction (safe backfill). However, I'm still currently leaning towards going there, unless something better shows up south of the banana, or thereabouts. We have a lot of jungle nearby, far from ideal, but also appear to have some room before the AIs meet us. I suspect Bismarck is to the SE somewhere, though, so he may put us under pressure soon-ish.

The reason to stop is that I'm unsure about what tech to pick. AH is selected on the back of possibly going west with city #2, but otherwise Mining->BW is the more traditional approach. AH does get boosted from starting with Hunting, though, so that is nice. Due to hills and the riverside pig (great tile!), the wheat can sadly never be irrigated, so that was a little sad. Health shouldn't be a concern, though, with corn, wheat and rice nearby. Loads and loads of Dyes nearby too, which I hope isn't a dark omen

Scout feels a bit far afield now, but I'm bringing him back down and west, assuming he doesn't die.

Did you settle E on the spice, BiC, despite 'losing' a turn? (and longterm a food)

 

[civac]

Do you want to farm the river grassland next to the corn?

 

[Fippy]

I don't think you can afford AH now, Cap is weak without chops early.
Also looks like barb heaven..knowing about copper would be very important.

Ofc it's 50:50 with horsies or copper, but Axes are much stronger

 

[Nick723]

Definitely not animal husbandry next unless looking for horses, there’s no way you can use it immediately. You have time to tech either mining or the wheel first regardless both which have more immediate value. I would go mining.

personally I would definitely go west and south west with cities 2 and 3 - easily safe from barbs and the better spots. Given the jungle and lack of ais no immediate rush to ‘claim’ land in my opinion - you’ll just make life with barbs v tough if you do so. Better to find copper / horses first.