[BTS] Stumbling back at Deity

[Pangaea]

To me, the alternatives are :
- Prepare for a Construction war ;
- Prepare for expansion.

Honestly, I am not sure you/we have the production for a Construction war.
Bulbing Philosophy is a fine line but I think you're getting ahead of yourself. There is no hurry for that (needs CoL and all...).
If you're not going for Construction, then the hurry is to get 2 settlers out.
- 1 will claim corn+crabs in the south east ;
- 1 will claim/block the northern area (with the help of that barb city). You can settle either 1N or 1N1E of the jungled rice. That spot secures MVP locations to the NW.
^ Use a couple of workers to start roading in each direction.
^^ I would also settle the pigs 3E1N of Athens before the bananas. It's possible to share both resources with a single city. You should DOTMAP the whole known world. Avoid overlap when you do so ; the aim is not to share food but to claim as much land as possible with as few settlers as possible (it will go faster and will cost less... maintenance).

I think I'd try to go peaceful, play the positional game, claim/block land. Invest massively into workers. You're close to Alpha, this is a fine time to produce settlers. Now you can max out production.
If/when you get metal, capturing the barb city would be great.
I haven't investigated the island possibility (for settling). You'll get around that in time.
There will still be time to make war plans when you get to Civil Service, when/if you've secured 8+ cities (which is what we're looking at if the blocking is successful). You'll be able to assess whether you can win the Lib race, need Trebuchets or whatever.

Thanks for the detailed feedback

I agree we don't have the production to go for an early war here. Probably in your case too (GLH), but for me I had to chop, chop and chop some more just to stay alive. Barbs were cruel. Going up against Bismarck at 8 cities in XX turns is only going to lead to tears. He's a strong military leader to boot, and incidentally very dangerous for backstabs (easily bribed).

However, REX into that massive jungle doesn't fill me with joy either. It will require a thousand workerturns. Typically the advice given to others, beginners or not, is to let the AI settle it and then take from their dead hands once they have developed it. Bit harder here, because I have nowhere else to turn, and a 15-city Pacal or whatever isn't going to be a walk in the garden. All that said, I feel hesitancy towards trying to block off that land. A good deal easier if Creative, but 9-tile quadrants doesn't block off all that much in all honesty, and it's typically easy for AIs so early in the game to bypass it. At least here where the 'frontier' is so long. It would also become very expensive, and I have no commerce to help me along, like gems, gold or GLH. The entire economy must be carried by cottages.

I'm just thinking out loud here, and totally agree I need to get out some cities. My thinking is probably that the corn-crabs spot is lost though. It's a bit iffy on the south tip like that (zero hammers), and could quite easily cause Bismarck to plot on me, which would be our doom. I was thinking more along the lines of going for banana and pigs.

I haven't seen as many Lain games and such as some others, but from what I recall from some of those games, where he got squeezed for land, it was sometimes possible to get out of jail by getting 6-7 cities and carefully teching and trading up to Cuirs or Cannons, and then breaking out with that. I suspect something like that will be my only hope in this game. Don't think a trebs war would be on. The AIs will have castles and knights everywhere then, possibly Cuirs, and then a war is dead on arrival (excuse the weird phrase marriage, hah). Remains to be seen whether we have iron nearby, but at least we have horses, which is a good start.

Being PHI can also help in that regard. This is thinking long-term again, but perhaps it could be feasible to get a GA with whatever, and then 1-2 GMs for upgrading HAs for example, and then turn up at Bismarck's or Pacal's door with many hooves.

However, it's a very long path from here to there. I'll have to expand a bit, but also be able to afford it. I won't have GLH to lean on (it went 600 years before you completed it in your game), but if I can get a happiness or two more, that will be great and allow the cities to grow a little more.

I shall fire up the game again and look at dotmaps. Made one yesterday, but think I may have exited the game without saving, so those are probably lost. But it's quick to do. I'm just concerned about the cost of heading into the jungle -- both in maintenance but not least also in workerturns. It's 5 turns just to remove one jungle and have a naked grassland. Then another 4-5 to cottage/farm. Easily 10 turns if we double up workers here and there, just to improve ONE tile. And there are 200 jungle tiles or something. Groan!

 

[Pangaea]

Hmm. Had forgotten I had played all the way to T88 already. Understand why you had a stopping point there then Seems like I've gotten next to nothing done, and only 4 cities so late is not good. Well, well...

At any rate, here is a dotmap I put together quickly:

Spoiler :

Unfortunately Bismarck already has that swords fortified 1W of (the finally jungled) rice, at 25%. So a settler could be on the way already. Otherwise, that "?" location isn't too shabby, at least once I get IW and can get up the pigs. A blocker 1S of Dye looks dodgy as all hell, but it could be fit for purpose if I'm just thinking about blocking. Will take forever to get up to speed.

First priority should probably be to get the banana before Bismarck gets that one too. Like written before, I've kinda considered the corn+crabs as lost already, or as too risky.

Anywho... for being close to 600BC already, this is super late and the empire needs to develop a whole heck if I am to stand any chance in this game. The light in the tunnel is that I have an Academy up, and some cottage development. But 4 cities... that is not enough. I'll need to get out a settler or two quickly and try to grab some land somewhere. In a pinch, it may be possible to get somewhere with a 6-city empire, as that would qualify us for Oxford, which isn't too bad as PHI. Oxford itself isn't the roadblock, but those 6 universities -- which we get at half price

 

[Pangaea]

Ouch!

Edit: Try to compliment the sharpness of his hat. If he's in a good mood, you never know

Otherwise he'll point out how you will be drawn and quartered and other unpleasant things.

 

[Pangaea]

GAH!!! I play one turn, and...

Spoiler :

This game just doesn't want to play nice, does it? I mean, I was only 12 turns late or so... :|


Ooof. One more turn.

Spoiler :

 

[Pangaea]

Indeed. Edited in what happened next turn. One more settler party. This is feeling more and more hopeless. Goddamnit!

 

[Pangaea]

Didn't see that post, but I kept playing. T108 now, so close to 1AD. I'm not dead at least

Spoiler :

First thing that happened after firing up the save again, was the great dash for the jungle. Many settler parties from both Pacal and especially Bismarck. The pesky German stole the spot just north of my capital, and before you blink, another party is going for our pigs. Or maybe not. I managed to get over there and thought I beat him by one turn. But his settler party kept going diagonally across the land, so I suspect he was going for the NW tip all along.

Spoiler :

Turn 96, and we get Alpha with Mansa for Aesthetics. Had to put 120-ish beakers into it. Also got Math from Monty the same turn, as he was the only one willing to trade it, and I didn't want to risk it with him too.

Really tried to play careful here, and actually thought I could beat his settler to the spice area by one turn. I used workers to speed my settler along, but it didn't work as intended. Kept having one worker too little on the 'right' tile, and it dawned on me that Bismarck would beat me by one turn, and there was nothing I could do. We'd be on the tile simultaneously and he would settle in the interturn. I could have settled on the spice itself, but that would ruin the dye city further south, which didn't seem preferential either, as a city further east wouldn't be able to borrow the rice. Therefore I decided to send the settler further north, hoping to grab that spot before another German or Mayan group could get there. I kept seeing 2-4 settling parties on-screen at this point. Nuts.

Spoiler :

We don't have mixed culture in a single tile, but quite a few are touching, which has caused a stir with our dear friend Bismarck

Spoiler :

-1 I had expected, but not -2

Elsewhere I've been able to check out the island to our south-west. Why the hell bugger up the sheep like that? It's downright... barbaric!

Spoiler :

Expected there to be seafood when I saw how they had settled, but nope -- nothing. My workboat is also chased by two barb galleys from the east here. When I met another one from the west, I simply deleted the workboat. Hectic area.

Had kept postponing changing to Hinduism, because there was such a rush trying to get out settlers to beat the AIs. It went so-so, but I'm glad we got the location north of the barb city at least. It's a good one, albeit far away. I've ignored the corn-crabs, and for some reason so has Bismarck thus far. Maybe too little free tiles down there, despite double food. The AI can be stupid like that.

I had one more settler in production, though, and not a good place to send him. There was the hill east of Corinth, which could then have grabbed banana. But the lake would most likely stay German, and it would just add extra border pressure for not much gain. Up north was nowhere to go either. The barb city did look ready to fall pretty instantly, so I assumed I'd be too late to resettle (it kept at size 1, so would be auto-razed). Had I known it would still take some time for it to fall, I may have sent that extra settler up north in preparation, but instead I whipped out a galley and tried to get him to the island. That soon turned out rather dangerous, because one of those galleys hadn't stayed on the south side of the island like I hoped, but ventured north. It slammed right into my galley with an archer and settler on board! Thankfully the RNG was on our side this day, and we won the fight and was able to land the settler party. Phew! I couldn't know what was on the west side, but I settled it where I had dotmapped before. Happy to see another fish popped up. But until those barb galleys are dealt with, no fish can be caught

I'm not in turn 108, with 8 cities. There is unfortunately heavy border pressure with Bismarck, so if he starts plotting, that's probably it. He has swords galore, and I only some warriors plus archers. however, the good news is that iron popped up close to the pigs city east of the capital, which amazingly enough is the only iron anywhere near our starting location. Well, except on that island If he attacks, it will most likely be against that hill city, which brings me a little comfort, but ofc it will be extremely hard to hold him back if he DOWs. For now he isn't plotting, but despite the same religion he is only cautious. Pacal started plotting a while back, but I don't know who that might be on. He despises Mansa, but Mansa must be far away, so it's certainly possible it's on me. He was pleased at the time, but that's no guarantee with nutters like that. Monty and Mansa are still at war, and two GGs have been born. No cities lost yet, but I think Mansa is in trouble. He has been working on Feudalism, though, so maybe that will save him.

An overview of the empire so far. I'm pleased with the landgrab, but I need more workers to sort out that ugly jungle.

Spoiler :

This turn I also managed to land Monotheism from Monty. It was a bit risky and maybe I shouldn't have, but I saw no other way to get it. He was annoyed with me so wouldn't trade, so I gifted him Alpha. That made him cautious, and I gave him Monarchy for Mono. Bismarck and Mansa hates him, though, so that was the risky part. Got a slight hit with Mansa, but thankfully nothing with Bismarck. But that enabled the double switch to HR+OR that I was after. Some hammers have been saved behind Research building in wait for OR.

Unfortunately that last trade made Pacal get the preposterous idea that we are too advanced. But this time I really haven't traded too crazily. Self-teched all those small techs except Mono itself. But have traded for: Alpha, Math, IW, Sailing, Calendar, Monarchy -- and Monotheism. That is all.

Spoiler :

I've selected MC next for now, thinking I need triremes to deal with those barb galleys, but I'm not sure if that is the right call. Pacal already has it, and it's something the AIs usually like to go for. What do you think I should try to get next?

Is there any hope?

 

[Pangaea]

Have continued this save, hoping to not abysmally fail at this one too, like in NC 291. 100AD currently. Only 11 more turns, but it's a decision point.

Spoiler :

Took a peek with the archer after the barb city was razed. Sure enough, a settler party is on the way instantly

Spoiler :

I'm glad they decided to settle east of the ruins though, because that means there isn't direct contest for the pig.

I've kept tabs on the power graph since I've got view on Mansa, and he has seemed to be doing okay, despite rising war weariness. However, he has now lost a city, and appears to be in great difficulty. If Monty gets Feud, Mansa will cap I'm sure.

Spoiler :

Up until now, I had no idea where Saladin was, and suspected he may be on the same landmass with Monty and Mansa, but hadn't been able to get a workboat over due to locked borders or barb galleys. In turn 118 our exploreboat finally spot some unfamiliar borders, and up comes Saladin! So he was way up north-east all along. (I saw his name in a screenshot from BiC's shadow, so knew he was present)

Spoiler :

Turns out Pacal wasn't plotting, but in a war against Saladin. Doesn't look like he's doing very well either. Really not good if yet another giant AI crushes another, and possibly gets a vassal.

Wasn't sure about opening borders with Saladin, as Pacal may well bombard me with demands, but did after all. Nice to explore his land, and maybe get good trade routes. Instead, Mansa asked me to join the war on Monty. I said no. You're getting crushes anyway, and I don't want Monty to target me next. He can reach us after all, albeit only with galleys. And I spotted a seemingly random Aztec catapult on the island next to ours. Perhaps it somehow to teleported there or something, because the island looks small. Odd.

Spoiler :

The economy has been bad for a long time, 8 cities is a lot on Deity. It has improved and we're breaking even at almost 40% instead of 20%. Calendar helped, due to some nice commerce resources. Shame we lost the spices-rice to Bismarck. A tangent, but it's crazy how quickly Deity AIs get those jungle-infested cities up to speed.

Barb galleys are causing many issues, and ruined the clam in Corinth. After waiting a few turns, hoping the barb galley outside Thebes would travel north, I took the chance to move ours out of the city. Was happy to see we won the ensuing fight, because then it was possible to ferry a worker over to the island, and that place really needed it. Still can't improve the fish there, as there are at least two more barb galleys nearby, but can chop and improve tiles, including iron.

At 100AD, we have finally saved up enough to be able to research something. I've slow-teched MC so far, but that looks like a poor choice to fully tech. Most AIs have Feudalism now, but only two have CoL and only two have Currency. More sober tech pace here, thankfully, but it tends to take off after 1AD. I think part of what is happening is that they run out of buildings to build, so build research or wealth instead, which really speed them up due to large cities and low maintenance.

Anyway, I'm thinking about picking Compass. Hopefully we have enough into MC already to be able to get MC for Compass with somebody, or alternatively without adding a lot of gold on top. Should be able to get CoL too, at least once Pacal goes Friendly (currently +9). Construction may be possible to get from Mansa. Does this sound like a good idea, or should I try something else?

Below is the map and tech overviews, and I've added the save as well. Please try to help me out so I don't lose this one as well

Spoiler :

 

[civac]

Bismarck would tilt me to the point that I'd go try to kill him, fail and start a new game.

 

[Fippy]

Would lean towards currency (speed up to 3t).
Only 2 AIs have it, should still give some trade value and ofc gold.

Biz has 8gpt if you sell him dye.
Philo bulb looks good in 10t (usually does)

 

[Pangaea]

Okay, then I can try that instead. See how it goes. Thanks.

 

[Fippy]

Was thinking like that: Compass has great trade value, but nothing else for now.
Currency can make you gold just by selling techs (and resources eventually).
Sometimes AIs delay it while at war, ofc if everybody suddenly gets currency the whole idea looks bad.
But imo it's worth trying in this case.

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks for the tip. The Currency gambit thankfully worked out here. Nobody else got it in the meantime

Spoiler :

Was able to get Construction from Saladin by paying 20g on top. Could get it in an even trade with Mansa, but then the possible MC trade was out, so I did it with Saladin. Put some more research into MC that turn, and thankfully it was enough to get it from Mansa, and he didn't get Currency between turns either. Suppose he's a bit more isolated here than he usually is, and still in a bad war with 10-city Montezuma in Police State. Cannot be a nice experience! Was also able to get CoL, think that was with Pacal. Although the Pacal-Saladin war ended, that trade made Saladin hate me, since they were still worst enemies, and I only met Saladin very recently.

Then Bismarck asked me to cancel relations with Montezuma.

Spoiler :

I really dislike demands like that, because it's a 100% negative event. We don't even get any positive diplo with Bismarck by agreeing, but merely don't get negative with him (for rejecting it). Okay, there is the slight penalty between Montezuma and Bismarck if we agree, because of a trade embargo, but that's it. Anywho, I don't want to anger ze Jerman, so I agree

In 300AD something happened which I hoped wouldn't. Somebody gets a GS. I'm only two turns short myself, but it's too late and nothing I can do. CoL has gone around, and Philo will get bulbed by Bismarck. Darnit.

Those two turns have now passed, and our own GS has been born. I'm thinking I should still bulb Philo, as it's pretty useful, and hopefully nobody else will get it for a while. Kinda means I can't use it for trades. What's the advice here? Do I bulb it, and do I keep it away from the trading table? I'm three turns away from CS, which doesn't look to be available otherwise, although Mao and Monty have it.

Tech overview. Pacal got a pile of gold from Saladin building Colossus, but no way to get it.

Spoiler :

Overview of the core of the empire. Capital has been getting along okay, but was recently two-popped for an Odeon. It had gotten unhappy. Unfortunately the spice cover it up, but the city is size 10 or 11.

Spoiler :

What's the play going forward here? Many AIs are pretty big, and the tech screen looks less favourable now than it did a little while ago. Music hasn't gone yet, but I'm sure it will happen soon with so many able to tech it. It's been available for Mao for a long time.

When do barbs typically get upgraded to longbows? I'd like to get the barb city on the island, but sadly need to raze it since it has no other food than the sheep they settled on top of.

 

[Fippy]

Golden Age in 3t i think.
Means no Paci for 5t after switching into Bur and Caste, but still pretty good with 200% from PHI and GA.

Argos should be able to get another Philo GS within 5t of golden age, 6 specialists each worth 9gpp hmm so 54 per turn..bit closer than i thought but should be okay.
Leaves 3t of golden age for other cities with all bonuses including Paci.
Staying in Caste is fine, can be fixed later with Theo + Slavery when war preparations start.

Could tech Compass + almost Paper while waiting for the new GS. Almost so Edu doesn't steal the bulb

No idea on barb city longbows, but should be anytime now with Feuda spread.
But i wouldn't really be tempted by settling that city, a lonely sheep seems of too low quality for past AD.

 

[Pangaea]

Went back to this Alex game and took you up on the advice of launching a golden age in three turns, when CS was done. But instead of then bulbing Philo, I decided to self-tech it (a few had it, but not available), and instead use the GS I had plus another one on Edu + Lib. Felt this part went relatively well. Was able to win Lib and pick Military Tradition, and then self-tech Gunpowder in three turns afterwards. However, it was hard to know what was happening in the Mansa-Monty war. Kinda looked like Mansa had gone on the offense based on tiles missing (being pillaged). But then suddenly he lost Djenne too, and capped to Monty between turns. Not great...

It's now 900AD and it's possible to produce Cuirs. I need to change civics first, so need a turn of anarchy to go into Slavery+Theocracy. Then it's all about whipping things into the ground and hope it's possible to beat somebody down. However, it's also quite possible that Saladin is plotting on me, and also Monty. The crazy bugger started plotting this very turn, after capping Mansa only a few turns ago. Total nutter. I turned down some demands and suchlike from them, so that may be why, but there is only so far I can bend over. On that note, I tried to raze the barb city with swords, but the RNG kept screwing me over, so it didn't happen. Still archers there, but one of them is now CG2 from winning at stupid odds and now I can hardly prioritise that capture gold and possible re-settlement.

The AIs look pretty rough to deal with, but hopefully this is still possible. A 1000AD attack is going to be too early, I have no army currently, but hard whipping for 8-10 turns may be enough? A few cities need other infra too.

Took some screenshots as usual:

Spoiler :

Mansa really did get screwed for land here. Should have done much better with placement of cities, but tough to be locked in a corner surrounded by jungle... Not sure how he held out for that long with no strategic resources. He must have built a thousand longbows.

Hated to see this guy! Meant I lost a bunch of tiles in two cities, and losing that mine also meant that very food-rich city had 0 hammers. It's why I had to get up some lousy workshops. At least Caste made them 1 2

Diplo with Shaka doesn't look great.

Against the barb city, stuff like this kept happening. When you need to slow produce one and one guy...

Looks much like before, but this is our core. The continent with Mansa and Monty happened to be connected via the island we settled. So he can technically reach us despite lacking Astro. Gulp.

Tech situation

Crossing my fingers something bad doesn't happen before I'm ready, like Monty suddenly landing from 20 galleys. Saladin thankfully can't reach us via land due to closed borders with Pacal (they fought a war). Possible he plots on him again ofc, but I'm not sure.

Our natural target is Bismarck really, but he's definitely not an easy target.