Impact of patch on each civ.

[Gali]

I can see India being stronger, with less beelining available the ability to get native science to push up the median will be nice. Plus the mughal fort can actually be decent now. Indian Honor path can give great culture now that mughal fort also provide happiness and cost less. They even give more of a bonus over castles now as well. So much for Pacifist Gandhi. With Garrison Indian honor can give 5 culture per city plus any barb bonus. And with all the emphasis on more base culture and less modifiers they plus Siam become culture beasts. Siam even more so if late game boosts to culture city states are true.

 

[Kevin J]

Gali, I'm really excited to try out India in this patch. I hadn't considered going the honor route, but that does seem fun. I'm going to try to leverage India's happiness bonus + HG beeline + Monarchy gold + happiness, followed either by a hard expansion (finish tradition for food bonus) or conquering (+honour tree).

After reading your thoughts, I'm thinking more to go the conquering route - and eventually fill both honour and tradition. Seems to have good synergy - free oligarchy garrisons providing happiness and culture, Tradition finisher for food and growth to leverage India's UA, and a potential +4 happiness per city from defensive buildings (1 'new' defensive building), which puppets tend to build eventually.

The honor tree provides a potential +5 happiness (4 defensive buildings +garrison) per city on top of the +5 culture Gali mentioned; Gandhi's UA should mean 20+ size cities, each of which would get +2 happiness from Landed Elite. The capital will likely be a net positive source of happiness thanks to Monarchy and the UA.

I really think Gandhi will be fun to play with a well paced expansion.

 

[ArcaneSeraph]

I definitely can see Egypt as the obvious gainer with this patch for reasons others have mentioned many times.

I want to try India as well but have some concerns about how the early game will play. If it is as stands won't new cities cost 6 happiness just by themselves? So founding a second city without a luxury hooked up will shoot you into the negatives right away. Likewise for a third city without 2... So they may be very slow if you try to expand without happiness buildings / policies.

 

[Kevin J]

I definitely can see Egypt as the obvious gainer with this patch for reasons others have mentioned many times.

I want to try India as well but have some concerns about how the early game will play. If it is as stands won't new cities cost 6 happiness just by themselves? So founding a second city without a luxury hooked up will shoot you into the negatives right away. Likewise for a third city without 2... So they may be very slow if you try to expand without happiness buildings / policies.

Yeah, the early cost for founded cities is the reason I will delay expansion as India. Once I have my positive happiness super city under way, I'll be able to expand. The solid gold/science/production from that base will allow new cities to be brought up to a happiness neutral (or positive) state more rapidly once they are founded. Post-monarchy you have a lot of free happiness from your capital, so there's a fair bit of flex time after founding cities to hook up resources and keep happiness balanced for continued growth.

I think a delayed expansion is better for India, less happiness-induced stagnation than a rapid expansion.

 

[_hero_]

It's hard to speculate how civs are going to be affected by the patches because:

1. The patch notes aren't final. Things can change.

and

2. Most of the information in the notes are vague. Longswords getting nerfed could mean only -1 strength or it could be -5 strength.

While this is true, to date 2k has made sure to not put anything in their initial patch notes that wasn't already final. If things change, it will likely be further additions to the patch. 2K.Greg has even said before that one of the last things they'd want to do is announce something was going to be in a patch and not deliver. It's highly unlikely that there are any substantial things from the patch notes that don't make the patch, though it's possible other changes could be made.

Perhaps we'll be lucky and 2K.Greg will clear up some of the ambiguity in the coming days.

 

[vexing]

I don't see anyone other than Egypt emerging, I can't see France retaining that UA at +2 /city indefinitely, and I think that Burial Tombs will either get maintenance or get hit to +1 if the game plays the way I expect post-patch.

are you referring to the upcoming civ5 beta 5? that is the next major patch after this one?

egypt is going to be interesting for sure, especially with the boosts to most wonders. hell, i liked war chariots before their boost. i wonder if filling out all of tradition will be optimal or the current route of tradition -> liberty -> settler -> legalism -> rest of liberty

 

[Ianwill93]

I know im definitely gonna be expanding more with Egypt now that SP costs have gone down. The burial tombs quick Happiness has always been a plus toward expansion but now ill be able to farm Great Artists from them too. I always play semi-cultural with Egypt anyway so thatll be great. (The more SP's the better!)

 

[kamex]

The only question is whether or not any other civs can even compete. Siam will probably remain best for a Cultural game, but takes some huge early game hits. Babylon will remain a powerful peacemonger, but takes a major hit in momentum strategies. Egypt will now have the Legalism trick of choice (which will synergize neatly with REX). Songhai probably gets demoted back to tier 2 status; the hits to the MPM and early RA efficiency smart.

I don't see anyone other than Egypt emerging, I can't see France retaining that UA at +2 /city indefinitely, and I think that Burial Tombs will either get maintenance or get hit to +1 if the game plays the way I expect post-patch.

I agree. Reduced culture increase per city screams a France Liberty REX. After reading the change list, Egypt seems the biggest winner by far, with the buffs to WC and the nerfs to Marble and Aristocracy.

 

[kamex]

are you referring to the upcoming civ5 beta 5? that is the next major patch after this one?

egypt is going to be interesting for sure, especially with the boosts to most wonders. hell, i liked war chariots before their boost. i wonder if filling out all of tradition will be optimal or the current route of tradition -> liberty -> settler -> legalism -> rest of liberty

What on earth is civ5 beta 5??? New news?

 

[Poopin Thelift]

Ottomans will be able to afford a 3 times bigger Navy, and galleys can be turned into triremes: Wow! I see a fun deity always war game in my mind, where the AIs will have trouble just to get contact with each other.

 

[MadDjinn]

Yes, Egypt will get a bit better wrt to their UB and UU. But their UA is taking a shot at the same time.

One of the 'hidden' bonuses for Egypt was that they always seemed to have a marble start bias. So even though their UA remains intact, and is better than Aristocracy/marble individually, their 'hidden bias' bonus is getting worse.


Actually, the one to watch, on the AI side, is Hiwatha. he's going to be a serious issue in any game now that there's no requirement for iron on the Mohawks. He's already highly aggressive around that time, then converts to mass spam expansion, then back to attacking. This might mean that he'll actually take out a neighbour or four early game.

On the flip side, if you're playing as Hiwatha, the game just got a lot easier.

 

[Martin Alvito]

I suspect that we're all just going to have to relearn how to play with Egypt. I think that you read their UA as "+2 and +2 in your first four cities after you build Monuments and select Legalism", play them as an expansionist civ and treat the UA as a small bonus. The War Chariot still isn't great, but it's much more competitive with War Elephants.

Unlimited Classical army sizes with Hiawatha could be a problem, especially since Swords won't obsolesce as rapidly. I don't think that it will make much of a difference for the human player; if it did, Cathy would be a lot more popular than she is.

Speaking of which, having additional Strategics for resale is going to be much stronger in a world where luxuries are effectively scarcer.

 

[turtlefang]

Just my two cents, but I think your underestimating Monty with the changes in the patch.

If Monty's aggressive in barb hunting now, he can pick up somewhere between two and 4 extra SP by the Middle Ages. Now, with cultural stacking in the honor tree, reduced price SPs, he could turn into a monster on the SP side. This could give him a significant advantage in the earlier to mid game that will turn into a long term strategic advantage.

Its somewhat map dependent (ocean maps hurt him), but he already needs to go the honor route and be aggressive - plus he gets a growth bonus from his UB. If he can control happiness by a rapid advance in the honor tree, move through the SP quickly, it will allow him to build vertically and horizontally faster than most civs.

 

[CYZ]

One of the 'hidden' bonuses for Egypt was that they always seemed to have a marble start bias. So even though their UA remains intact, and is better than Aristocracy/marble individually, their 'hidden bias' bonus is getting worse.

You're forgetting Marble was buffed indirectly. Egypt is alot more likely to be able to build the Stoneworks which is a very nice building especially with stone nearby.

 

[GenjiKhan]

With Production reduced cost for buildings,I think Russia will be greatly buffed now,since that +1 production from strategies resources will worth even more(specially in Epic/Marathon speeds).

 

[fmlizard2]

Still trying to understand why France is good, this new patch or otherwise. They have always seemed tres mediocre when I have played them. Sure, you could build a lot of early cities for a round of +2s, but how is that superior to keeping a small base policy cost with 1-2 cities and just buying up a couple cultural CSes.

I would much rather have 1-2 cultural CS allies than a ton of crappy French towns that jack up my base policy cost. Patronage is the gift that keeps on giving, all game long, well after the French advantage has diminishing returns or has become entirely obsolete.

Nothing I saw in these patch notes makes me think Greece and Siam are not still the best. People are talking about the Patronage finisher hurting Greece, but how so? If anything, it makes Greece and Siam that much better because you can make your stranglehold on your allies that much tighter, just by doing something you were going to do anyway (finish that tree).

Wats require libraries now? So what. Hopefully you were already building a library for your Wat. You need some type of base science to make it useful. +50% of nothing is still nothing.

Scholasticism is nerfed. Sure, a little bit. Actually, it is comparatively stronger since the alternate strategy of turning gold into science (RAs) was nerfed a lot more.

I still consider anything Patronage to be by far the best overall strategy in the game because of how it impacts everything your civ does, not just one area.

 

[Furycrab]

Nothing I saw in these patch notes makes me think Greece and Siam are not still the best. People are talking about the Patronage finisher hurting Greece, but how so? If anything, it makes Greece and Siam that much better because you can make your stranglehold on your allies that much tighter, just by doing something you were going to do anyway (finish that tree).

I don't think the finisher hurts Greece or Siam that much but it will make games where if more than one person is going for CS allies it will be harder to hold all of them. The nerf to Scholasticism is also fairly significant.

 

[ArcaneSeraph]

Still trying to understand why France is good, this new patch or otherwise. They have always seemed tres mediocre when I have played them. Sure, you could build a lot of early cities for a round of +2s, but how is that superior to keeping a small base policy cost with 1-2 cities and just buying up a couple cultural CSes.

I would much rather have 1-2 cultural CS allies than a ton of crappy French towns that jack up my base policy cost. Patronage is the gift that keeps on giving, all game long, well after the French advantage has diminishing returns or has become entirely obsolete.

Nothing I saw in these patch notes makes me think Greece and Siam are not still the best. People are talking about the Patronage finisher hurting Greece, but how so? If anything, it makes Greece and Siam that much better because you can make your stranglehold on your allies that much tighter, just by doing something you were going to do anyway (finish that tree).

Wats require libraries now? So what. Hopefully you were already building a library for your Wat. You need some type of base science to make it useful. +50% of nothing is still nothing.

I still consider anything Patronage to be by far the best overall strategy in the game because of how it impacts everything your civ does, not just one area.

Agreed with pretty much everything.

I don't see any nerf to patronage at all with this patch. Siam requiring the library to get wats just changed the legalism trick some. Though wats (unis in general) are +33% now to start with. Although that just strengthens patronage indirectly.

The patronage finisher hurts greece if someone else finishes it. But I don't really see how it hurts greece any more or less than anyone else...

The only possible reason I can see as to why patronage might not as strong as it was is that CSes provide less culture early and buildings are in general cheaper / faster to build. So it might be that the player choosing to build buildings and rush buying will do fairly well compared to the one going for CSes.

As for France... I understand in MP it might be really good to get a slight edge with France getting one of those much desired wonders faster (via GE from SP). I fail to see how moving the really good bonuses from Liberty and Tradition to finishers hasn't hurt France some. And also considering as you can't expand as fast without killing your happiness now... even if France is settling on new luxuries exclusively their REX will come to a halt quicker now than before. So their fast start has been slowed down too. Further considering that liberty now provides no decent way to increase early game happiness up under this kind of REX and the other branches do.... well let's just say you better be able to do something incredible with your turn savings and GE from liberty completion because other civs going other directions are going to catch up all that more quickly.

 

[Randall Turner]

I don't see any nerf to patronage at all with this patch. Siam requiring the library to get wats just changed the legalism trick some. Though wats (unis in general) are +33% now to start with. Although that just strengthens patronage indirectly.

Patronage was reduced "directly" about the same amount the others were, wouldn't you say?

(ie - Scholasticism was dropped by a quarter - you'll need four vs. three City-State allies to get the same amount of beakers. About the same as RA's and universities. Close enough for government work.)

I think the biggest changes will be implicit, from the changed political landscape. "Indirectly", ie, secondary effects, the net effect of the patch mitigates towards richer, friendlier AI opponents and longer games. More RA opportunities, but I suspect outbidding strong AI economies for city-state allies will get harder. (More gold overall increases City-State competition while decreasing RA scarcity.) Net effect could be that an RA strategy will be less random, Patronage strategy more so.

Edit: to be clear, I think a Patronage civ, or even just one without some Porcelain Tower acquisition advantage, should concentrate on Patronage. But I think we might need a little luck vis a vis competition, too.

 

[ArcaneSeraph]

Patronage was reduced "directly" about the same amount the others were, wouldn't you say?

(ie - Scholasticism was dropped by a quarter - you'll need four vs. three City-State allies to get the same amount of beakers. About the same as RA's and universities. Close enough for government work.)

I think the biggest changes will be implicit, from the changed political landscape. "Indirectly", ie, secondary effects, the net effect of the patch mitigates towards richer, friendlier AI opponents and longer games. More RA opportunities, but I suspect outbidding strong AI economies for city-state allies will get harder. (More gold overall increases City-State competition while decreasing RA scarcity.) Net effect could be that an RA strategy will be less random, Patronage strategy more so.

Edit: to be clear, I think a Patronage civ, or even just one without some Porcelain Tower acquisition advantage, should concentrate on Patronage. But I think we might need a little luck vis a vis competition, too.

Good points, yeah. If the AI did indeed try to grab CSes as it could do on Deity especially with its massive gold, the player would have a hard time even keeping 1. So maybe they actually nerfed it too much . Like most things its a wait and see game right now.

EDIT: Makes me wonder if maybe that whole "Pledge to Protect" thing might influence AIs more to leave those CSes alone if they are your friends too.