[RD] Impeach Clinton

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@Evie
Have you listened to anything I've been saying? You've arrived at the correct conclusion; every single power structure in our society is destructive and leads to/enables abuse. Nothing you said contradicts my central point, until you devolve into typical liberal defeatism about social power structures. The thing about social structures is that they exist solely as a product of political and economic hierarchies, and when these are destroyed so will be the social power structures.

Even if you believe this impossible, surely your understanding of the nature of political and economic power demonstrated in the immediate response post to mine should lead you to oppose the systems that implement these powers? Why support such spooky concepts as "the law" and government if you accept that they only serve to hurt?

It's kind of nice to have your type of anarchist around. Unfortunately Evie has a point: power structures just arise, and unless you have a power structure already in place to prevent the rise of new ones, they will arise. Unless you were to have an extremely low human population density, you'd always quickly get some polity, some form of social structure. And even with a fragmented population you'd have the family and its interpersonal conflicts.

Even if you could in a fictional year zero educate every individual to recognize and reduce hierarchical power relations, I bet that you would soon find some individuals trying to command others, and many of those others settling into doing as they were commanded, or guided in their view. From here power relations would develop, and be used and turned into aggressive power relations (not just consent-based ones) as soon as conflicts between groups happened.

We could forbid the expansion of the scope of social relations, power structures, beyond a certain size or certain issues, but that actively requires an already existing power structure to enforce such prohibitions. That is what the "liberals" support, in one way or another: a governments and laws.

Just give me a single sample of a working anarchy (you can take this as one that lasted the duration of a generation) in a somewhat densely populated territory. It doesn't even need to be a city. Then we can discuss specifics about your ideas of how abolishing laws may work out.
 
It's kind of nice to have your type of anarchist around.

Hm... Not sure how to take this... :)

Unfortunately Evie has a point: power structures just arise, and unless you have a power structure already in place to prevent the rise of new ones, they will arise. Unless you were to have an extremely low human population density, you'd always quickly get some polity, some form of social structure. And even with a fragmented population you'd have the family and its interpersonal conflicts.

This doesn't have to be the way things are. If you mean power structure as in just literally any form of social organization, then I suppose I'd agree with you-- but this isn't the real threat, nor has it ever been the target of anarchist thought. Social organization isn't always bad, until it becomes hierarchy, and hierarchy is, I would argue, not in fact a natural occurrence or one that is fundamental to human society. I think it's only conditionally occurring, and that while the unfortunate reality may be that the conditions have been in place for a very long time it doesn't mean that the right amount of concerted effort couldn't overpower these conditions and the processes that perpetuate hierarchy.

Even if you could in a fictional year zero educate every individual to recognize and reduce hierarchical power relations, I bet that you would soon find some individuals trying to command others, and many of those others settling into doing as they were commanded, or guided in their view. From here power relations would develop, and be used and turned into aggressive power relations (not just consent-based ones) as soon as conflicts between groups happened.

The will of individuals to specifically rule over others is not natural, but conditional. I might trace this occurrence to scarcity mentality in a post-scarcity situation, which has arguably been the case since the advent of agriculture.

We could forbid the expansion of the scope of social relations, power structures, beyond a certain size or certain issues, but that actively requires an already existing power structure to enforce such prohibitions. That is what the "liberals" support, in one way or another: a governments and laws.

I think we may have a somewhat different definition of a liberal, but the idea you describe is a common one for sure. I think it makes more sense to do what you call impossible, and to educate each and every person to be responsible for the recognition and destruction of hierarchy. Now obviously somebody could call this impractical, but Vanguardism (the alternative) has its own drawbacks. The realistic application of a universal education of the population in class consciousness would probably result in the creation of something much larger than a Vanguard but which functions similarly. A horizontal network of community protectors, unofficial but responsible and willing to protect their people from the menace of hierarchy.

Just give me a single sample of a working anarchy (you can take this as one that lasted the duration of a generation) in a somewhat densely populated territory. It doesn't even need to be a city. Then we can discuss specifics about your ideas of how abolishing laws may work out.

...Well this is obviously difficult in the goalposts you establish, simply because whenever these ideas are applied they're swiftly attacked from all sides by an onslaught of state and corporate violence, so the closest answer in modern history I can give is probably the EZLN-protected territory in Chiapas.

However, a more unconventional answer would be that the majority of human history has seen a largely non-hierarchical social organization over most (or all) of the population. Agriculture has only existed for a few thousand years, and before that there was no state or property. There were other social structures, such as gender and limited systems of spirituality, but these typically served a very specific and limited purpose and did not develop to become the hierarchies we know of them today (patriarchy and religion, respectively) until the agricultural revolution.

People are always quick to point out that there was conflict between families in this period, but I respond that this was always very limited and the majority of humanity got along pretty nicely. This was before agricultural surplus, which enables behaviors beyond food acquisition and has enabled the development of things like the arts and sciences; imagine a return to a social organization free of the ills of post-agricultural "civilization", but with all the technological and cultural benefits. It might be hard to achieve but I think it's definitely possible.
 
All hierarchies come down to politics and economics? Hardly. Politics play very little part in, say, high school hierarchies, and while economics can certainly affect those hierarchies, the hierarchies exist even absent economic factors.

Trying to boil down the way hierarchies form in a society to two single factors is a gross oversimplification.
 
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Actually they all boil down to one single factor, economic hierarchies, because political hierarchies come from the same. To say that economic hierarchy as the root of social hierarchy is a "simple solution" is wrong. Economics is extremely complex itself.

High school hierarchies come from the alienation of capitalism, manifested in various ways.
 
Politics play very little part in, say, high school hierarchies
This statement is profoundly incorrect. Politics are the central issue in High School hierarchies. High School hierarchies revolve entirely around popularity, which is, of course the core issue in the politics of a democracy. So in fact, High School hierarchies are the archetype of politics, at least American/democracy-style politics... This is why, through High School, student-government elections, we first learn the truth of the adage "elections are just a popularity contest".
 
This statement is profoundly incorrect. Politics are the central issue in High School hierarchies. High School hierarchies revolve entirely around popularity, which is, of course the core issue in the politics of a democracy. So in fact, High School hierarchies are the archetype of politics, at least American/democracy-style politics... This is why, through High School, student-government elections, we first learn the truth of the adage "elections are just a popularity contest".

I don't think this is what Evie meant; they seemed to be referring to actual existing political institutions, and their effect on interpersonal relationships between high school students.
 
I don't think this is what Evie meant; they seemed to be referring to actual existing political institutions, and their effect on interpersonal relationships between high school students.
Whenever there are three people, there will be a leader, a second, and someone to bring cookies. Politics is part of life.

J
 
Almost twenty years ago, Bill Clinton was impeached. His impeachment was largely political, but it was premised on the fallout from the Paula Jones investigations by Ken Starr. Those investigations revealed that Clinton was something of a philanderer, and that he used to benefits of his offices to engage in liaisons with women. Despite these revelations, Democrats in the Senate continued to support him.

As we condemn Roy Moore, Louis CK, Harvey Weinstein, George Takei, and Kevin Spacey for their past sexual misdeeds, we should not fail to reexamine the pass that was given to Clinton. As the GOP is learning, a party cannot mortgage its morals in favor temporary authority.
There's a long thread over at TrekBBS about Takei, and my view of this is that he has denied the allegations, no police report was ever made, it's a "he said/he said" situation, and I am not ready to denounce without proof.
 
This statement is profoundly incorrect. Politics are the central issue in High School hierarchies. High School hierarchies revolve entirely around popularity, which is, of course the core issue in the politics of a democracy. So in fact, High School hierarchies are the archetype of politics, at least American/democracy-style politics... This is why, through High School, student-government elections, we first learn the truth of the adage "elections are just a popularity contest".

Under your definition of politics, correct, but then political hierarchies can never go. One’s ability to make friends and be well liked; one’s affininity for social activities and for the spotlight, are not social or cultural factors that can be reforemed or revolutionized away. They’re (at least in part) personality traits, and there will always be those who are better at it and those who are not, thus leading to distinction between the more popular and the less popular.

And being more popular make people more likely to believe you, to do favors for you, in short, gives you power over others, and creaing an informal hierarchy.
 
Meh. If we really wanna get into it, a lot of the more toxic things that contribute to "popularity", like hypermasculinity or status signaling, could be diluted by education and class abolition.
 
It's hard to say how much economic relations condition social relations, or the opposite (social relations enable some people to benefit from other economically). I don't thing that the economy should even be regarded as a separate "realm" from social relations. It's one portion of it.

Hm... Not sure how to take this... :)

Was intended as a compliment :D

The will of individuals to specifically rule over others is not natural, but conditional. I might trace this occurrence to scarcity mentality in a post-scarcity situation, which has arguably been the case since the advent of agriculture.

I would like to agree with you in this, but I cannot. I've seen how people take a liking to "lead", to occupy decision-making positions, positions of power. Not all people, some actively avoid it, but some others like it, discover they like it. It seems to me that it was there, the potential to enjoy power, it's just discovered, not learned. But that leads us to the age-old innate vs learned discussions... And I may be wrong.

I think we may have a somewhat different definition of a liberal, but the idea you describe is a common one for sure. I think it makes more sense to do what you call impossible, and to educate each and every person to be responsible for the recognition and destruction of hierarchy. Now obviously somebody could call this impractical, but Vanguardism (the alternative) has its own drawbacks. The realistic application of a universal education of the population in class consciousness would probably result in the creation of something much larger than a Vanguard but which functions similarly. A horizontal network of community protectors, unofficial but responsible and willing to protect their people from the menace of hierarchy.

Education has a problem, one I've best seen explained in a little book about propaganda I'll recommend to anyone, old though it is, Jacques Ellul's Propaganda. It comes from a conservative perspective, from a philosopher priest who decries the increasing reach the modern state developed (and perhaps romanticizes what existed before, propaganda is not an invention of the modern state). But he offered me two brilliant insights: the better informed citizens become more vulnerable to manipulation, through the very information they get used to consuming, and complex societies force people to take shortcuts, rely on prejudices and on unverified information, in order to just lead their lives.

Out societies suffer from the problems caused by increased complexity. They are not going away, unless we were to give up many of the trappings of civilization. Consider: Facebook and Google were optional, yet people voluntarily enrolled in them... because it was convenient, and they came to believe that in the complex society they live in they need to use this "tools" where people are the product. Voluntary embrace of an increase in complexity, gradual increase in exposure to propaganda, perceived need for propaganda (always called "information" by its peddlers).
Can people be educated to refuse these increases in complexity that lead them to loss of control over their own lives? They perceive it as an increase in control for them (easy communication! information! news! organization!). Education itself is increasingly delivered through this infrastructure, and indeed we're here talking in a kind of "social network" (a web forum).

Have you considered that education may have been the cause of power inequalities, or at least a necessary tool for its increase, and can it really become a tool for its decrease? Conservatives (in the traditional political meaning of the word), or course, will say no: they would rather turn the clock backwards and return to a "simpler world". Progressives usually say yes. As a skeptical, I fear I cannot believe either answer. I would like to have a solution to this, but do not. Still hope for one...

...Well this is obviously difficult in the goalposts you establish, simply because whenever these ideas are applied they're swiftly attacked from all sides by an onslaught of state and corporate violence, so the closest answer in modern history I can give is probably the EZLN-protected territory in Chiapas.

However, a more unconventional answer would be that the majority of human history has seen a largely non-hierarchical social organization over most (or all) of the population. Agriculture has only existed for a few thousand years, and before that there was no state or property. There were other social structures, such as gender and limited systems of spirituality, but these typically served a very specific and limited purpose and did not develop to become the hierarchies we know of them today (patriarchy and religion, respectively) until the agricultural revolution.

It is curious that in this you are being a "conservative". Your solution is going back to a simpler world. The mostly agricultural village system of Chiapas. The appeal of the pre-historic era of mankind, before the most essential or out tools of education (and propaganda!), such as writing, were invented. But this cannot work with out population densities in the big cities, there is no turning back the clock of complexity there, unless some 9/10ths of the population were to die.

My own favoured "solution" is a mere improvement, an amelioration of the problems that have grown over the past century: keep polities small and democracy near to the people. Bear the "burden" of "losses of economic efficiency" associated with reimposing borders, financial controls, trade barriers, different legislations in different geographical territories. Ditch the cult of efficiency, so many times a lie anyway.

And even this limited programme, I despair of ever having enough followers to be applied. I witness a disaster in the making in Europe, and so few willing to oppose it... we have grown in number in recent years, but' there's a lot to be done to stop and revet that disaster. Limited goals are all I can hope fighting for.


Apologies for going off-topic. Relevant to this thread: I'll say that in a small polity a rotten politician will be more likely to fear backlash from the citizens. Impeaching someone no longer seems a big endeavor, but rather something attainable. Hell, slapping the piece of clap when you find him in the street may even become possible too! Icelanders seemed to be able to easily evict governments.
 
Education has a problem, one I've best seen explained in a little book about propaganda I'll recommend to anyone, old though it is, Jacques Ellul's Propaganda. It comes from a conservative perspective, from a philosopher priest who decries the increasing reach the modern state developed (and perhaps romanticizes what existed before, propaganda is not an invention of the modern state). But he offered me two brilliant insights: the better informed citizens become more vulnerable to manipulation, through the very information they get used to consuming, and complex societies force people to take shortcuts, rely on prejudices and on unverified information, in order to just lead their lives.

Out societies suffer from the problems caused by increased complexity. They are not going away, unless we were to give up many of the trappings of civilization. Consider: Facebook and Google were optional, yet people voluntarily enrolled in them... because it was convenient, and they came to believe that in the complex society they live in they need to use this "tools" where people are the product. Voluntary embrace of an increase in complexity, gradual increase in exposure to propaganda, perceived need for propaganda (always called "information" by its peddlers).
Can people be educated to refuse these increases in complexity that lead them to loss of control over their own lives? They perceive it as an increase in control for them (easy communication! information! news! organization!). Education itself is increasingly delivered through this infrastructure, and indeed we're here talking in a kind of "social network" (a web forum).

Have you considered that education may have been the cause of power inequalities, or at least a necessary tool for its increase, and can it really become a tool for its decrease? Conservatives (in the traditional political meaning of the word), or course, will say no: they would rather turn the clock backwards and return to a "simpler world". Progressives usually say yes. As a skeptical, I fear I cannot believe either answer. I would like to have a solution to this, but do not. Still hope for one...

I am reminded of...

During drill-time Kantorek gave us long lecutures until the whole of our class went, under his shepherding, to the District Commandant and volunteered. I can see him now, as he used to glare at us through his spectacles and say in a moving voice: "Won't you join up, Comrades?

These teachers always carry their feelings ready in their waistcoat pockets, and trot them out by the hour. But we didn't think of that then.

There was, indeed, one of us who hesitated and did not want to fall into line. That was Joseph Behm, a plump, homely fellow. But he did allow himself to be persuaded, otherwise he would have been ostracized. And perhaps more of us thought as he did, but no one could very well stand out, because at that time even one's parents were ready with the word "coward"; no one had the vaguest idea what we were in for. The wisest were just the poor and simple people. They knew the war to be a misfortune, whereas those who were better off, and should have been able to see more clearly what the consequences would be, were beside themselves with joy.

Katczinsky said that was a result of their upbringing. It made them stupid.
 
I'm going to kill some birds with one stone here and say that while we can't get rid of power, we can get rid of hierarchies.
 
Just because someone of a lower class hooks up with someone of a higher class does not guarantee the relationship was abusive.
 
Sorry, but I have to disagree.

For one thing, I'm skeptical that these reforms could have any real effect or ever have. The entire culture of politics and open secrets-- read: bourgeois culture-- is too fundamentally a part of these institutions, from the media to the government to the corporate elites. Attempting to apply new laws to people who enforce the law, and have never followed the law themselves, is basically ineffective by nature.

For another, even if these things had any effect it seems like just doing away with the entire source of these problems altogether is the obvious solution. Why settle for creeping progress when the systemic problems can be rooted out by never allowing their basis to exist in the first place?

or you could just get a job commie
 
I'm going to kill some birds with one stone here and say that while we can't get rid of power, we can get rid of hierarchies.
Trying to follow this... Do you mean get rid of hierarchies that are not based on individual power? It seems that power will always tend towards creating hierarchies, specifically where some are leaders, admired, rewarded, popular, etc., while others are not. It seems like what you're talking about, is more the caste system that we have now, whereby people are born into "superiority" based on various characteristics, having nothing (or very little) to do with their own talents, merit, achievements, charisma, etc... Is that right? Feel free to correct me if I'm not taking your meaning.
 
There will always be situations where people exercise power over one another. What we can do is prevent that from crystallizing into hierarchy by limiting the circumstances under which power can be exercised, and by making power as accountable as possible. Constitutionally limited government and collective bargaining re two ways we (imperfectly) accomplish these things in real life.
 
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