impi question

[civzombie]

Can an impi with the Guerrilla 2 promotion move four squares, as long as he sticks to hills?

If not, is this a bug or an intended feature. When I look at the promotion description, I would expect that they could move four squares.

 

[SpartanEvolved]

In theory, yes. Never tried it though.

 

[drkodos]

Can an impi with the Guerrilla 2 promotion move four squares, as long as he sticks to hills?

No. Mobility only lowers the entry cost to a tile to 1 point, which is different than doubling movement rate.


And that would be far too powerful for any unit to move four tiles over land, especially in the earlier ages.

 

[CivDude86]

Where'd you get an impi with guerrilla?

 

[drkodos]

Where'd you get an impi with guerrilla?

Good point. They would be able to get Woodsman II, but still are not going to be moving 4 tiles.

 

[civzombie]

"Good point. They would be able to get Woodsman II, but still are not going to be moving 4 tiles."

Why? I just checked the civlopedia and under Impi it says "movement: 2." Then, when I check the woodsman 2 entry, it says "double movement in jungles and forests."

Is the civlopedia wrong?

You might want to check the civlopedia before responding, if possible, to make sure we are on the same page.

 

[drkodos]

"Good point. They would be able to get Woodsman II, but still are not going to be moving 4 tiles."

Why? I just checked the civlopedia and under Impi it says "movement: 2."

Check the civlopedia before responding, if possible, to make sure we are on the same page.

Is the civlopedia wrong?

Impi are Melee units. The Guerilla promotion is only available to Recon, Archery & Gunpowders units. The Woodsman promo is availablt to Melee units ( I believe).

I do not have the book in front of me so forgive. Impi come with Mobility, which is defined as "All terrain costs 1 Movement point to enter." When they are upgraded they do not produce a unit that has two movements until they get all the way to Mechanic Infantry.

Woodsman II gives Double movement in Jungles and forrests. These squares cost 2 Movement points to enter. So the impi can enter the square and still be able to move one tile after entry into that square.

That's the best I can do, so apologies for not being able to make better sense of something that is inherently confusing.

Feel free to test it in World builder. The Impi does not gain the ability to move 4 tiles. I only wish it did.

 

[civzombie]

There seems to be some miscommunication here. I'll try and clear it up.

1. My bad on the guerilla example, lets stick to the woodsman 2 example now.
2. Yes Impis have mobility. That isn't the whole picture. See 3.
3. Completely seperate from mobility, Impis have "movement = 2". It says this in the civlopedia.
4. I have tested this, impis don't get double movement in forests. There movement 2 should be "doubled" in forests for four movements.


Since the civlopedia seems inconsistent with the game, it sounds like there is a mistake/omission in the civlopedia. The point of my post was to verify this.

I hope I can get agreement that there is a mistake/omission, or a clear explanation of why I am wrong.

 

[MNGhost]

There seems to be some miscommunication here. I'll try and clear it up.

1. My bad on the guerilla example, lets stick to the woodsman 2 example now.
2. Yes Impis have mobility. That isn't the whole picture. See 3.
3. Completely seperate from mobility, Impis have "movement = 2". It says this in the civlopedia.
4. I have tested this, impis don't get double movement in forests. There movement 2 should be "doubled" in forests for four movements.


Since the civlopedia seems inconsistent with the game, it sounds like there is a mistake/omission in the civlopedia. The point of my post was to verify this.

Think about it this way: The Woodsman promotion does double their movement in forest and jungle, but it still costs two movement to enter a forest or jungle tile. Another way to word it would be "reduces movement cost to enter forest or jungle by half". So an Impi with its 2 movement and Woodsman promotion gets to move through forest/jungle at a cost of 1 movement each, instead of the customary 2.

 

[Honkoid]

Just checked it in the worldbuilder. Although I would have expected the impi to move four tiles it still moves two, so the movement bonus of woodsman II is nearly gone for the impi. The only case in which it is still faster with woodsman II is when moving on forested hills.

edit: The strange thing here is, that for a woodsman II warrior the movement is not only doubled but at least quadrupled, as he does behave like having 4 movement points in forest, or in other words loses only half a movement point in forest. With 2 movement points, which would be the doubled amount, the warrior could still only cross one forested square per turn. The civilopedia is somewhat unclear about this.

 

[drkodos]

There seems to be some miscommunication here. I'll try and clear it up.

1. My bad on the guerilla example, lets stick to the woodsman 2 example now.
2. Yes Impis have mobility. That isn't the whole picture. See 3.
3. Completely seperate from mobility, Impis have "movement = 2". It says this in the civlopedia.
4. I have tested this, impis don't get double movement in forests. There movement 2 should be "doubled" in forests for four movements.


Since the civlopedia seems inconsistent with the game, it sounds like there is a mistake/omission in the civlopedia. The point of my post was to verify this.

I hope I can get agreement that there is a mistake/omission, or a clear explanation of why I am wrong.

Cool. I also want to make it absolutely clear that there was nothing personal intended in any of my posts nor did I take anything personal from anyone else's posts.

Now: I believe the book/civilopedia to be confusing on this point, and several others as well (i.e Gold/Commerce -- it often uses the words interchangeably). I do not wish to either attack nor defend this apparent inconsistancy, but it does exist.

The reality is that they do not really get 2 movement points, but get their movement penalty reduced when entering tiles. There is a subtle, but distinct, difference and I believe this is both the cause of the confusion (for me as well) and the cause for the Woodsman promotion to not allow 4 tile movement.

I have no better way to explain it. I apologize deeply if I seem obtuse, or to be evading the question.

 

[Stylesrj]

If that is true, why is it when I promote my scouting Warrior with the second Woodsman, it can move TWICE in a forest? The Warrior only has ONE movement point, yet it can enter a forest or a jungle and move another square after that. With that kind of logic in mind, I think the Impi would be able to move four times or three times in a forest or jungle with those promotions

 

[Thyrwyn]

it is just really bad wording in both the rules and the Civilopedia, specifically regarding the movement effects of Woodsman/Guerilla II.

The bottom line are the effects in the game:

Any unit with Woodsman II (Scout, Warrior, Impi, etc. . . ) can move two squares whenever the first square they enter has either Forest or Jungle. That is the only thing that matters - whether said trees are on a hill or not has no bearing on the above rule. A Warrior with Woodsman II who enters a Forested Hill with his first move will be able to move again.

Any unit with Guerilla II (Scout, Archer, etc. . . ) can move two squares whenever the first square they enter has a hill. That is the only thing that matters - whether or not said hill has Forest or Jungle has no bearing on the above rule.

Both an Archer with Guerrilla II and an Axeman with Woodsman II can move two squares, if their first one is a Wooded Hill. Weird, but true.

Impi do move 2 and they have Mobility. If their first move is into a forest or onto a hill then they will be able to move again, since Mobility reduces the cost of the terrain to 1 (but never less than 1). If they move onto a Hill with Forest or Jungle they will stop, since the cost of the terrain is 3 minus 1, or 2.

An Impi with Woodmsan II can enter a Wooded Hill first and then move again, because Woodsman trumps Mobility - they do not stack. Before the Impi, this was moot since the combo could not exist. only Armor and Mounted units can get Mobility, and neither of them can take either Woodsman or Guerrilla .

This is the way it has always been - see the Explorer (move 2, ignores terrain movement cost). Even with Woodsman II it will only move 2 squares through Jungle or Forest.

 

[civzombie]

"This is the way it has always been - see the Explorer (move 2, ignores terrain movement cost). Even with Woodsman II it will only move 2 squares through Jungle or Forest."

Ahh... hadn't thought of that example.

So the bottom line is, the description in the civlopedia is wrong. Woodsman II does not "double" movement in many situations.

For example a warrior with woodsman II sometimes gets treated as having three or even four movement when the first movement is on a forest or forested hill. E.g. the first move costs two movement and the second move costs one movement for a total of three movement cost.

What it should say is simply, "When your first movement is into a tile having jungle or forest, you get to move again."

 

[civzombie]

Drkodos - thanks for the help, and no I didn't take anything personal.

If I seemed frustrated it was because my curiousity was not satisfied and I felt like your answer was going to keep others from responding to my post. Thyrwyn hit it though

 

[Watiggi]

Here's something interesting: If you cross a river and onto a forested hill on the first turn, the Impii can no longer move. If you do the same thing - cross a river and onto a forested hill on the first turn - with a Keshik, it still gets to move afterwards - as if it can allways get 2 movement points. I found that one interesting. I have always thought of the Keshiks bonus as actually being Mobility but without the promotion. Strange, but worth knowing if your Keshiks are being chased by Impi's

 

[drkodos]

Here's something interesting: If you cross a river and onto a forested hill on the first turn, the Impii can no longer move. If you do the same thing - cross a river and onto a forested hill on the first turn - with a Keshik, it still gets to move afterwards - as if it can allways get 2 movement points. I found that one interesting. I have always thought of the Keshiks bonus as actually being Mobility but without the promotion. Strange, but worth knowing

Good catch.


I believe the Keshik "ignores movement cost" which is different than mobility or 2 movement points or having all terrain cost 1 MP to enter. I think that is why.

 

[Watiggi]

Good catch.

I believe the Keshik "ignores movement cost" which is different than mobility or 2 movement points or having all terrain cost 1 MP to enter. I think that is why.

Ahhh, that's why.

I thought I had remembered seeing the Keshik as being '-1 movement terrain cost' and allways had that in my mind. I didn't realise it actually said 'ignores movement cost'. Thanks That makes sense then.

edit: that also explains why the Keshik cannot get Mobility either - it wouldn't do anything for the Keshik.

 

[Stylesrj]

Hmm you are right, explorers only get 2 movement points even with max promotions. But why does me warrior get two movement points when he has those promotions? Does not make sense

 

[Meatbuster]

Wouldn't the only explanation for this "weirdness" is that Mobility and Woodsman II are bugged when used together?