Inca Alternative Leader

[Henri Christophe]

It's the specific notion of the royal family leading the expedition themselves that I ask for much stronger evidence on.

What more evidence do you need, we have chronist of Spain and legends of Rapa Nui about a sun king who arrives there. There is no more ways to know the truth except that.

But okay, let's consider Tupac Yupanqui was a coward guy who was afraid to go in a well stablish maritime route in to the ocean and need to send someone else in his place to send orders to his subjects, who should Tupac Yupanqui choice? Some commoner? I don't think so

In other hand, even if Tupac Yupanqui don't lead him self this maritme expedtion (and all chronist are liars). That don't mean he can't be Civilization's 7 leader of Inca empire with some boat as Unique Unit.

You completely ignored - again - the ancient tendencies of usage, and commonality and scarcity, of various dyes in picture-drawing, and the very different symbolisms VERY often attributed to chromatic descriptions of people than modern socio-anthropological uses of such descriptives - and went RIGHT BACK to a literalist, modern-view-race-based rendition taken at face value, as though the picture were a photograph. This is a VERY bad habit of yours, and one that has often been called out by numerous posters, here.

Go to the thread I send above, I don't want to be out of topic here.

 

[Patine]

Go to the thread I send above, I don't want to be out of topic here.

The thread you gave above is pure speculation and leaps of logic. You quote it as if it's proven and settled fact.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Mansa Abubakari II, from the Mali Empire, also made his voyage and we are sure his made it because he don't come back.

There's probably a great reason why Mali only gets bonuses for trading with desert tiles instead of ocean.

In my opinion there are always going to be many more oceanic exploration/naval civs in the game such as England, Portugal, the Netherlands, Carthage/Phoenicia, insert generic Viking and Polynesian civ etc. just to name a few. In that regard I don't necessarily see the reason to include it in abilities for Civs like the Inca or Mali who greatly fill other niches in the game that aren't as numerous.

What are the chances that we'd get another civ who utilizes mountains in a different way in Civ 7?

 

[Henri Christophe]

In my opinion there are always going to be many more oceanic exploration/naval civs in the game such as England, Portugal, Netherlands, insert Viking civ etc. just to name a few. In that regard I don't necessarily see the reason to include it in abilities for Civs like the Inca or Mali who greatly fill other niches in the game that aren't as numerous.

Why just europeans as explorer of ocean? I want to see more civs with unique boats unit as for example China, who had the amazing voyage of Zheng He.
Or the Chola kingdom of South India.

What are the chances that we'd get another civ who utilizes mountains in a different way in Civ 7?

I believe a civ as Inca can have both habilities, still with an hability to do good works in mountain, but in other hand have an Unique Unit as a boat. The same goes to Mali, they can be the empire of Saara desert, but can also have an Unique Unit as a boat. Maybe Civ 7 can bring more than one unique unit for each Civilization to make this more feasible.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Why just europeans as explorer of ocean? I want to see more civs with unique boats unit as for example China, who had the amazing voyage of Zhang He.
Or the Chola kingdom of South India.

Well as you can see I also added in Polynesia, as well as either Carthage or Phoenicia.
There's also a good chance that Indonesia will keep on appearing as well, though they might not always have a unique naval unit or naval bonuses.

I believe a civ as Inca can have both habilities, still with an hability to do good works in mountain, but in other hand have an Unique Unit as a boat. The same goes to Mali, they can be the empire of Saara desert, but can also have an Unique Unit as a boat. Maybe Civ 7 can bring more than one unique unit for each Civilization to make this more feasible.

What would be the names of a unique Inca naval unit or unique Mali naval unit?

 

[Patine]

I believe a civ as Inca can have both habilities, still with an hability to do good works in mountain, but in other hand have an Unique Unit as a boat. The same goes to Mali, they can be the empire of Saara desert, but can also have an Unique Unit as a boat. Maybe Civ 7 can bring more than one unique unit for each Civilization to make this more feasible.

And replace their far more signature, important, and iconic Unique Unit concepts, like Huaminca or Chasqui Runners, just for some apocryphal story that was a sidenote in their history, if it was even real?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

And replace their far more signature, important, and iconic Unique Unit concepts, like Huaminca or Chasqui Runners, just for some apocryphal story that was a sidenote in their history, if it was even real?

I'm sure they would be leader unique units, if the leaders would ever be chosen to get in the game.

Nevertheless my question still stands on to what the units should even be called. The only thing I have seen is a Wamp'u which means "watercraft" in Quechua and they were apparently not even proper boats, but rafts.

 

[Evie]

I'm of the opinion a civ's limited selection of ability should represent that civ as a whole, not a footnote in their history.

Quirky leaders who did something unusual for the civ are good *alternate* leaders, once the civ already has a leader that better represent the civilizationa as a while, but have no business being the main leader of the faction.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Well as you can see I also added in Polynesia, as well as either Carthage or Phoenicia.
There's also a good chance that Indonesia will keep on appearing as well, though they might not always have a unique naval unit or naval bonuses.

I'm cool with Polynesia/Maori, Carthage/Phonicia and Indonesia with theirs Unique Boats and Naval bonuses. But I still believe more civs can be in it list.
The exploration of oceans is a cool part of this game and every civ who can have this, should have their own Unique Boat at least once in this game.

What would be the names of a unique Inca naval unit or unique Mali naval unit?

That is a good question. I don't know how Incas and Malis say the name of their own boats, but the transliteration of boat in their native language can be a good option, as you said above it can be Wamp'u (I don't find that much about this name, but is a good option). Other option can be Kon-Tiki, it was the name of an european boat used the same technology of Incas. I don't know why he choice it's name, but some relaction of Incas that must have.

And replace their far more signature, important, and iconic Unique Unit concepts, like Huaminca or Chasqui Runners, just for some apocryphal story that was a sidenote in their history, if it was even real?

Huaminca and Chasque Runners never was Inca Unique Unit in Civilization, I don't have problem with they. Huaminca at least was an Unique Unit of Age of Empires III. But I can't see how Chasqui Runners can be an Unique Unit. Inca Civ Unique Unit was the Slinger (who in Civ 6 gain a Inca name as Warak'aq).

As I said before, would be more fun if each Civ in Civilization 7 have more than one Unique Unit, it make feasible to Inca have units not just for ancient era, but it also have middle ages units as boats.

I'm of the opinion a civ's limited selection of ability should represent that civ as a whole, not a footnote in their history.

The Tupac Yupanqui voyage isn't just a footnote in their history, it is an amazing milestone in the Inca empire.
I learn so much when I'm playing Civilization, I didn't know about Iroquois or Zulus before play this game, and now I know about them very well.
If this game have the power to tell history, why don't tell this amazing history of Tupac Yupanqui, the discoverer of Oceania?

 

[Evie]

Because telling the history of Tupac Yupanqui's sea journey comes at the expanse of not telling the story of the Inca's creation of an incredible empire and imperial administration in otherwise rugged and inhospitable terrain.

And one of these stories is more important to tell than the other.

 

[Patine]

If this game have the power to tell history, why don't tell this amazing history of Tupac Yupanqui, the discoverer of Oceania?

"Discoverer of Oceania," or, for that matter, "discoverer of anywhere where people already live and have for a long while," is a colonial title, even if proclaimed by a leader whose own nation was historically colonized. The Lapita Culture discovered Oceania, even though we have no clue as to whom they're leaders and explorers were, at the time.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Because telling the history of Tupac Yupanqui's sea journey comes at the expanse of not telling the story of the Inca's creation of an incredible empire and imperial administration in otherwise rugged and inhospitable terrain.

And one of these stories is more important to tell than the other.

I don't think so. Tupac Yupanqui was also a conqueror, he conquer lands from Equador to Mapuche Land.
Choice Tupac Yupanqui don't will hide how amazing Inca empire was, just will show how amazing it was, of not just have an empire in rugged and inhospitable terrain, but also have relations with the sea. A complete empire.

What would be the names of a unique Inca naval unit or unique Mali naval unit?

Back on this topic, other name what can be used to Inca boats is Yampu Runancha, who is used in Luigi's mood of Tupac Yupanqui of Civ 5: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?l=tchinese&id=2236642573

Changing a bit the focus of this Thread, how about Manco Cápac II leading the Inca civilization? He don't receive any vote in the pool but is another great name of the Inca empire. He is the dude who fight against the Spaniards of several years and the Inca empire survived in Vilcabamba several years too.

 

[Evie]

Most every empire had relations with the Sea, but only those that were historically centered on sea power (Portugal, Netherlands, England, etc) get sea-related abilities. France made great sea voyages, but doesn't get sea abilities. China sent out Zheng He, still no sea ability. Russia explored the maritime route above Siberia, no sea ability - and rightly so.

Empires get bonuses in their most important spheres, the things they were best at, the aspect of their history that had the grestest long term impact. No one gets "complete empire bonuses". France is culture and diplomacy, Russia is expansion and faith, etc.

 

[Patine]

What are the chances that we'd get another civ who utilizes mountains in a different way in Civ 7?

Given we would almost certainly NEVER get Tibetans, I'd say Swiss at best. But even they are very dubious to appear as a civ, for other reasons. You're point here is very solid, and @Henri Christophe is barking up the wrong trees, almost certainly.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Most every empire had relations with the Sea, but only those that were historically centered on sea power (Portugal, Netherlands, England, etc) get sea-related abilities. France made great sea voyages, but doesn't get sea abilities. China sent out Zheng He, still no sea ability. Russia explored the maritime route above Siberia, no sea ability - and rightly so.

Empires get bonuses in their most important spheres, the things they were best at, the aspect of their history that had the grestest long term impact. No one gets "complete empire bonuses". France is culture and diplomacy, Russia is expansion and faith, etc.

I think Russia and France don't have a boat as Unique Unit because they don't achieve any extraordinary achivement.
French armada was obliterate by English armada.

And Russia armada was obliterate by Japanese armada.

Maybe Japanese can have an Armada as Unique Unit, but the Samurai or Kamikazi airplanes had more appeal in Japanese history.

Other point is, the French and Russian armada is very similar to other armadas over the world, I don't see any special boat or something, but Incas, Malis and Chineses boats are very different and unique.
Look this chinese boat with red flags, it is very beautyfull and unique

Mali boats are also very beautyfull and unique.

The same can said about Inca boats, very unique.

 

[Patine]

I think Russia and France don't have a boat as Unique Unit because they don't achieve any extraordinary achivement.
French armada was obliterate by English armada.

And Russia armada was obliterate by Japanese armada.

Maybe Japanese can have an Armada as Unique Unit, but the Samurai or Kamikazi airplanes had more appeal in Japanese history.

Other point is, the French and Russian armada is very similar to other armadas over the world, I don't see any special boat or something, but Incas, Malis and Chineses boats are very different and unique.
Look this chinese boat with red flags, it is very beautyfull and unique

Mali boats are also very beautyfull and unique.

The same can said about Inca boats, very unique.

Okay, let me ask you this? How many Civ players will understand and appreciate the concept of naval unique units and/or bonuses for Mali and the Inca as appropriate and iconic, and view the addition as organic and natural, and fully making sense? And, conversely, how many will find it inexplicable and bizarre as additions to focus on and strongly define the civs? THOSE are important questions.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Okay, let me ask you this? How many Civ players will understand and appreciate the concept of naval unique units and/or bonuses for Mali and the Inca as appropriate and iconic, and view the addition as organic and natural, and fully making sense? And, conversely, how many will find it inexplicable and bizarre as additions to focus on and strongly define the civs? THOSE are important questions.

That is the why I made this thread. To see who will like or not Tupac Yupanqui leading the Inca empire with some boat as Unique Unit.
Since them you (Patine) and Evie don't like, the other 3 in this thread don't express a clear opnion about this issue, but, even that is just a few members in this thread untill now.

Looking about the mood of Tupac Yupanqui made by Luigi, that have 3 stars of 25 voters, is not that bad.
And if it have a mood about Tupac Yupanqui that also means there is other people in the world who would like this idea.

But to avoid mischaracterize the Inca empire with their mountain habilities and their Slingers, Civ 7 can add more than one Unique Unit for Civilization, maybe do it as Ethinic Unit mood, where all units was special for each civ.

 

[Patine]

That is the why I made this thread. To see who will like or not Tupac Yupanqui leading the Inca empire with some boat as Unique Unit.
Since them you (Patine) and Evie don't like, the other 3 in this thread don't express a clear opnion about this issue, but, even that is just a few members in this thread untill now.

Looking about the mood of Tupac Yupanqui made by Luigi, that have 3 stars of 25 voters, is not that bad.
And if it have a mood about Tupac Yupanqui that also means there is other people in the world who would like this idea.

But to avoid mischaracterize the Inca empire with their mountain habilities and their Slingers, Civ 7 can add more than one Unique Unit for Civilization, maybe do it as Ethinic Unit mood, where all units was special for each civ.

I think you're overinflating the level of support for this idea by counting those who've said nothing as de facto, "positive," (or might as well be), and those who liked a FAN-MADE MOD as assumed to support said leader for the whole civ in Civilization 7, complete with an idiosyncratic and counter-intuitive set of bonuses and focus. You're assuming support for this idea, as stated in the scope stated, where it has not been at all expressed.

 

[awesome]

It’s good to introduce lesser known things in games like this, but I definitely wouldn’t have the entirety of the Inca civilization focus on something that one guy might have done, when there’s so much more.
If they did have Tupac Yupanqui as (one of) the leader(s) of the Inca, then I could see the voyage being represented, but I’d probably do something with overseas trade.
I also wouldn’t say that sailing to an island is more interesting than forming an entire overseas empire, so there are plenty of civilizations that would make more sense with a naval ability/unit before the Inca. If I had to pick one for the new world that wasn’t Polynesian, though, I’d probably go with Haida.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I also wouldn’t say that sailing to an island is more interesting than forming an entire overseas empire, so there are plenty of civilizations that would make more sense with a naval ability/unit before the Inca. If I had to pick one for the new world that wasn’t Polynesian, though, I’d probably go with Haida.

The Taino in the Caribbean would also be another good option.