Inca

The main thing I don’t get about VP Inca is their lack of culture. I really don’t think :c5science:science on mountains reflects the Inca all that well, so it’s probably my attempts at trying to infuse more :c5culture:culture into the civ.

By the 1500s the Inca didn’t have metalworking outside of gold and silversmithing. They didn’t have a written language (as we might define one, anyways), and they didn’t use wheels or currency and tons of other what we might consider basic technologies. However, they had exceptionally strong institutions, and their administrative and bureaucratic capacity was greater than contemporary European monarchies. They had some wonderful technologies like freeze drying and agricultural methods for high altitudes, but I feel like the core strength of the Incan empire was its taxation system and its institutions. Perhaps you can argue those are innovations in and of themselves, but the culture/policy system in civ reflects them more precisely.

re: the encampment, it has science on it, so I don’t think the overlap is serious there.
 
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I think it was designed to be their Achilles heel. If you give culture to TF you basically make Inca too strong in every aspect.
And I'm saying that is a truly bizarre achilles heel to give the INCA. The culture that invented income taxes before they invented money. The culture that created a system of centrally-controlled garrisons and warehouses so robust and comprehensive that they didn't engage in depredation or forage to sustain their armies, who were still armed with stone clubs and slingshots. The culture that invented a pony express and system of roads across one of the largest contiguous empires in history, inside some of the most difficult terrain on the planet before they invented the wheel.

Science should be their achilles heel.
 
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Want to suggest another small boost to TF: they should be buildable on any resource - on naked hills it's usually sheep or mining/construction lux. On jungle hills its usually bananas and calendar lux. Also when built on lux or strategics, it should connect the resource. Sheep ruining TFs has been a major complaint since Vanilla.
 
I find this situation with science and mountains weird too. Like I get the flavor, similar to observatories, but if Inca are a mountain culture it would make sense for them to get you know...culture. They used to have faith which I found flavorful.
 
I agree that science is not the best yield for the Inca to get, from a balance perspective. I think gold would be better, it might be a bit more boring, but the Inca feel basically unstoppable if they have lots of mountains, especially since you can't even really invade them, so I think avoiding science, culture and faith is a good idea.

About the Terrace Farm, I think it should get bonuses from fresh water as farms do for starters. I think reducing the mountain adjacency bonus to be +1:c5food: per 2 mountains, and adding a +1:c5food: per adjacent Terrace Farm would be a good way to even out the UI, make it better on hill heavy starts and not just mountain starts. Being able to build them on resources like Moai would be nice too.
 
While I 100% agree from a flavor standpoint, I'm not sure it's okay to change them so radically right now. If we're shifting them from culture-light science heavy to science-light culture heavy it could require multiple rounds of balance to get the numbers right. I'm still generally in favor of it, but wanted to point that out.

Anyone want to come up with a proposed change-list that they think would do it?
 
One thing about the Inca that seems odds. They worshipped the Sun God, from the mountains and hills of their Empire. So what about Golden Age points? Tiles that have golden age points are somewhat rare in-game. So get rid of the science, and have golden age points from mountains, and then terrace farms. The faith is already covered by the mountain pantheon so no double-dipping in that manner. A lot of golden ages would reflect a well-run empire

If not Golden age points, then maybe give it a wide range of adjunct boosts, based around general improvement of terrain.

Some ideas for the Terrace farm.
Adjunct boost to pasture resources (particularly those pesky hill sheep) or it can improve hills pastures. Food or culture
Bonus for roads running over the Terrace. Incan mountain logistics. Likely just gold.
Bonus for mines next to. Just boost the production
Along with the standard food for Terrace or normal farms. And their mountain bonus.

Maybe a few extras. Like faith next to Natural Wonders, many of which are mountains but are also rare.
 
Spoiler Current Inca :

Great Andean Road
Units ignore terrain costs when on Hills and may cross Mountains.
Cities, Roads, and Railroads may be built on Mountains.
Mountains produce 1:c5food::c5science:, scaling with Era.

Terrace Farm.
Can only be built on Hills and does not require a source of Fresh Water.
+1:c5food:2:c5production:
Gains +1:c5food: For Each adjacent Mountain
Adjacent Farms gain +1:c5food: Food.
+1:c5food: at Civil Service, Ecology, and Fertilizer
+4:c5food:/3:c5production:/3:c5science: at Urbanization/5 Year Plan/Military Industrial Complex


Spoiler My proposal (changes are in BOLD) :

Great Andean Road
Units ignore terrain costs when on Hills and may cross Mountains.
Cities, Roads, and Railroads may be built on Mountains.
Mountains produce 1:c5gold::c5culture:, scaling with Era.

Anden (renamed from "Terrace Farm")
Can only be built on Hills and does not require a source of Fresh Water.
+1:c5food:2:c5production:
+1:c5food: from Fresh Water
1:c5food: for every 2 Adjacent Anden

Gains +1:c5food: For Each adjacent Mountain
Adjacent Farms gain +1:c5food: Food
+1:c5food: at Civil Service, Ecology, and Fertilizer
+1:c5gold: from Cathedral
+2:c5gold:2:c5production: from Agribusiness
+1:c5food:1:c5production: from Exploitation

+4:c5food: at Urbanization
+3:c5production: at 5 Year Plan
+3:c5science: at Military Industrial Complex

Spoiler Reasons for the changes :

I don't think :c5food:Food or :c5science:science are particularly good for the mountain bonus
  • :c5food:Food from mountains is already captured by the terrace farm/Anden. Having food from mountains from both the UA and UI feels like double-dipping.
  • You are guaranteed 2:c5food: food from any tile you settle on, so an Incan player actually gets no bonus food from settling on a mountain until renaissance, when era scaler grows to +3:c5food:. This means the only benefit to settling on mountains is the :c5science:science.
  • I don't think :c5science: reflects Incan history accurately, for reasons I described in posts above, and especially if that science comes at the cost of culture being added to their kit.
  • There is an argument to be made that, despite lagging behind European and Asian empires scientifically, the Tawantinsuyu had extremely developed governing structures by any contemporary standard. This is best reflected by :c5culture:culture. Therefore, I think :c5culture:Culture is the most pertinent bonus to be added to the Incan kit somewhere.
  • The second yield I would like to see is :c5gold:gold, in reference to various aspects of Incan history, such as Cero de Potosi, the heavy use of gold in rituals, the famous Ransom Room of Atahualpa. Little known fact, but pre-Colombian Ecuadoreans created some precious objects using platinum, long before Europeans had discovered the element.
  • I don't think much needs to be made of the Incan :c5faith:religion; they inherited a large number of their beliefs and practices from preceding empires and neighbours. If people are interested in a faith-oriented Andean civ, they should check out Tiwanaku, which is most likely where the Incan patron deity, Inti, originates.
  • I would reserve a :c5goldenage:Golden Age bonus for a culture that lasted long enough to actually have a golden age... I don't want to single @Drakle out, but Pachamama was at least as important to Incan religious life as Inti, and mountains are an aspect of and representative of Her. regardless, I don't see a strong connection between GAPs and a sun god, so I won't argue for one.
Only minimal changes are needed to keep the Terrace Farm/Anden more relevant into the mid-game and late game
  • First off, the name. Anden is the more precise term for the type of terrace farm that the Andean people built. This helps clarify that the Inca aren't unique in using terrace farms.
  • The terrace farm doesn't do quite enough at the moment, and occupies the same tile space as a mine. If you don't have a nearby mountain, you are effectively trading a 5:c5production: mine for a 1:c5food:4:c5production: terrace farm after Forge. Mines are also more convenient, since they can be built earlier. While other UIs can get by with more modest yields, given the yield types and the opportunity cost of the tile the improvements present, they really should offer more.
  • Adding the mechanics and bonuses that farms get from various other sources and adjacencies merely reinforces that these improvements are farms on hills. It seems like the most obvious way to keep the UI relevant, especially once Agribusiness arrives.
 
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I think it actually used to be gold and culture before it was changed.
i thought it was :c5gold::c5science::c5faith: before? That was a long time ago...

Edit: per this conversation in 2017, apparently it used to be 2:c5food:3:c5production:1:c5gold: initially, then scaled 1:c5gold::c5science::c5faith: per era after that? @randomnub posted a shot of renaissance(?) with 5:c5gold:2:c5faith:2:c5science: mountains. Not clear if he is still in medieval in the pic.
 
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Do we really want to make it so that Inca at times can get 1 :c5culture: Culture at turn 1 by settling on a mountain and/or just stupidly broken if they get a couple of mountains? I know that won't happen all the time but I hate to have a good game only to discover a Inca that's extremely ahead like the old China.
 
Do we really want to make it so that Inca at times can get 1 :c5culture: Culture at turn 1 by settling on a mountain and/or just stupidly broken if they get a couple of mountains? I know that won't happen all the time but I hate to have a good game only to discover a Inca that's extremely ahead like the old China.
oh yeah, that’s fair. Maybe looks like the code allows for an initial type of yield for mountains, and a scaling value, so maybe 2:c5production:1:c5gold:, and 1:c5gold:1:c5culture: for every era after that?
 
oh yeah, that’s fair. Maybe looks like the code allows for an initial type of yield for mountains, and a scaling value, so maybe 2:c5production:1:c5gold:, and 1:c5gold:1:c5culture: for every era after that?

Why not give Mountains a yield that doesn't scale to help Inca's early game. The scaling will be entirely on the Terrace Farms where we have better control on when the yields will be unlocked through techs. This lets Inca make better use of Terrace Farms even if they lack Mountains nearby.
 
Why not give Mountains a yield that doesn't scale to help Inca's early game. The scaling will be entirely on the Terrace Farms where we have better control on when the yields will be unlocked through techs. This lets Inca make better use of Terrace Farms even if they lack Mountains nearby.
Because mountains can't get improvements, so if there is not any era scaling on the mountain yields, then they won't be relevant beyond the early game.
 
You are guaranteed 2:c5food: food from any tile you settle on, so an Incan player actually gets no bonus food from settling on a mountain until renaissance, when era scaler grows to +3:c5food:. This means the only benefit to settling on mountains is the :c5science:science.

Pretty sure it doesn't work this way. IIRC a freshwater mountain city tile gives you 4 food as Inca city in ancient, and non-fresh gives 3, as of a couple months worth of patches ago at least.
 
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