Incest

Is incest acceptable(read post first)?

  • Yes

    Votes: 19 20.9%
  • No

    Votes: 62 68.1%
  • I like to vote in polls

    Votes: 10 11.0%

  • Total voters
    91
IMHO any marriage which is GUARANTEED to result in genetic defects should NOT be sanctioned by the government! What could be more common-sensical? So far, that covers incest. I don't see how it covers anything else.

Not really. I know (from another forum) a brother-sister couple who were raised seperately, met, fell in love, that whole story. They had a doctor test to see their chances of serious problems if they decided to have a child. It was only about 3%. IIRC incest only results in major problems when it's done continuously over several generations.

How can you dare say I didn't answer your question !

So you're saying that if a 30 year old woman consents to sex with her 50 year old father that it's child abuse? :confused:
 
The question is not about incestuous marriage. And there are ways of preventing giving birth to inbred children(I know there is no 100% method).

But what if it was homosexual incest? What is wrong with that? No chance of genetic defects. Does anyone have an argument against that?
 
Originally posted by Speedo
So you're saying that if a 30 year old woman consents to sex with her 50 year old father that it's child abuse? :confused:
As I've told you. If they are both consenting, no one will complain to the Police so it's hard to fight against it. If it's a rape, and even if she's 30, than the father must be prosecuted as any raper, with just a special treatment considering the psychological shock the daughter may be victim of. What do you want to do more ? Plant cameras inprivate houses ?
 
no marriage is guaranteed to result in genetic defects. marriage does not yield offspring. sexual relations yield offspring.

incest does not guarantee genetic defects. the only reason that incestuous relationships tend to have genetic defects is because the two individuals may certain rare recessive traits in common, which are realized in their offspring. however, the chances of a genetic defect in the offspring are not as high as most people would think. most of the ideas behind the horror of incest are a result of incestuous relationships borne out through several generations of a family, in which the chances are increased with each generation.

*it seems speedo has lived up to his name and beat me to the punch
 
As I've told you. If they are both consenting, no one will complain to the Police so it's hard to fight against it. If it's a rape, and even if she's 30, than the father must be prosecuted as any raper, with just a special treatment considering the psychological shock the daughter may be victim of. What do you want to do more ? Plant cameras inprivate houses ?

Now you've lost me. So you're saying that if they both consent then it isn't incest?

*it seems speedo has lived up to his name and beat me to the punch

I try ;)
 
Originally posted by Speedo
Now you've lost me. So you're saying that if they both consent then it isn't incest?
No ! My question was simply : how do you want to prosecute incest if no one complain ?
 
Well that's new information to me. I'll have to sleep on it ;)

In any case I'm reluctant to legalize incest because as I said there is no lobby of oppressed West Virginians demanding their rights, yes? ;) IMHO we are not talking about natural urges here, but a conscious choice. It's the difference between granting blacks the vote and taking away the vote from felons. The first group is categorized by genetics, the second by choice of action. Nobody should be denied freedom of harmless action when they are motivated by something they can't control - their own biology! But when we're talking about choice, I think we all agree the bar is raised. What's next, a bunch of paedophiles petitioning Congress to legalize their "natural" urges?
 
Originally posted by Marla_Singer
No ! My question was simply : how do you want to prosecute incest if no one complain ?

If no one knows about it I don't guess it's going to be prosecuted. How though does that answer my question about your earlier generalization?

But when we're talking about choice, I think we all agree the bar is raised. What's next, a bunch of paedophiles petitioning Congress to legalize their "natural" urges?

"What's next, a bunch of homos petitioning Congress to legalize their 'natural' urges?" - A statement that I have no doubt was uttered countless times in the history of the United States.
 
Originally posted by Speedo
What's next, a bunch of homos petitioning Congress to legalize their 'natural' urges?" - A statement that I have no doubt was uttered countless times in the history of the United States.
Speedo, pedophilia is not about two consenting adults. Thus, it can't be compared with homosexuality. Seriously, Speedo, I'm sure there are people in your neighbourhood that are gays, did they harm anyone ? Do you see the thing yes or no ?
 
Speedo makes some good points, I would probably say that a parent/child relationship or one where any party was under-age should remain illegal as there are lasting physcological damages caused.

If a brother and a sister are both adults and choose to wed, then hey let um, if the wish to have a child make them consult a doctor and if the doctor believes the child to be at little or no risk of abnormality then let them have children.
 
Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate
Well that's new information to me. I'll have to sleep on it ;)

In any case I'm reluctant to legalize incest because as I said there is no lobby of oppressed West Virginians demanding their rights, yes? ;) IMHO we are not talking about natural urges here, but a conscious choice. It's the difference between granting blacks the vote and taking away the vote from felons. The first group is categorized by genetics, the second by choice of action. Nobody should be denied freedom of harmless action when they are motivated by something they can't control - their own biology! But when we're talking about choice, I think we all agree the bar is raised. What's next, a bunch of paedophiles petitioning Congress to legalize their "natural" urges?
What makes you think their urges aren't indeed natural? What kind of person would consciously choose to **** little children? I've heard paedophiles speak about themselves on TV, and they described their urges as a sort of monster taking over them. They may be lying of course, but it makes perfect sense to me. Just like you may be naturally inclined to like blondes, some people are naturally inclined to like children.

Of course, even if paedophilia were natural it still shouldn't be legalized because it almost always involves no consent--or invalid consent--of the child. Potential paedophiles should be expected to realize this and resist their urges.
Originally posted by General Porkins
no marriage is guaranteed to result in genetic defects. marriage does not yield offspring. sexual relations yield offspring.

incest does not guarantee genetic defects. the only reason that incestuous relationships tend to have genetic defects is because the two individuals may certain rare recessive traits in common, which are realized in their offspring. however, the chances of a genetic defect in the offspring are not as high as most people would think. most of the ideas behind the horror of incest are a result of incestuous relationships borne out through several generations of a family, in which the chances are increased with each generation.

*it seems speedo has lived up to his name and beat me to the punch
[also @ similar posts] You're probably right. I dunno, though; I'll have to think about it some more.
Originally posted by Marla_Singer
As I've told you. If they are both consenting, no one will complain to the Police so it's hard to fight against it. If it's a rape, and even if she's 30, than the father must be prosecuted as any raper, with just a special treatment considering the psychological shock the daughter may be victim of. What do you want to do more ? Plant cameras inprivate houses ?
[also @ just about every one of your other posts] People DO sometimes complain to the police about non-paedophilian incest. Take a look at my thread about the marriage between a father and his adult daugher, and the incest between them, for one example. (Link here.) Besides, whether or not it's generally reported has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion, considering it CAN be reported, and in fact sometimes IS reported. Your generilization, although usually correct, is not a perfectly logical attack on incest IMO.
 
how about twin brothers?

hell why not 4 brothers all married to each other?
 
Let 'em do it. Let 'em marry. If they're two consenting adults, what difference does it make?
 
Let's think about the practical aspect. If incest was legal, fathers/mothers would start "educating" their children in a special way since a very early time. In that case, when the child is brainwashed to think a certain way throughout his education about his parents - how consentual is it when he is older?
 
Interesting thread.

I voted “no”, as it was my first impulse, but than I read the arguments, and they got me thinking and into a “not so sure” place. This time, I do agree that Speedo raises good points and defends a position that has valid ground.

Well, first things first, so, before anything else, let’s drop the pedophilia line of argument, shall we? Equating incest to pedophilia and child abuse is exactly the same fallacy as equating homosexualism to pedophilia and child abuse – they can co-exist, but are in no way derived one from the other.

We can discuss about those, as well as any other form of not consented (or invalidly consented) sex, but that is subject for another thread. In here, let’s not qualify the definition of incest with an ugly factor to detract its concept even more, and keep in mind just consenting able adults, ok?

In that case, the argument that incest should be outlawed because it can generate a genetically defective offspring is invalid. First, because this would demand that the prohibition would lie not in the marriage itself, but in the act of having children, so, a law just prohibiting pregnancy in the union between too close relatives would suffice. Also, as people pointed out, genetic surely is against them, but this does not mean a 100% certainty of a defective baby. If they have a chance, does the society have the right to forbid them from trying? In what grounds?

Also, what about people who does have the same genetic problem, which meet, and fall in love of with each other, without being relatives? Say, two people who are genetically deaf, or two people with congenital diabetics. These have as high a chance, perhaps even higher, of coming up with a children that is handicapped in some way… still, they are not forbidden to marry and have kids. Keep in mind that, as their diseases are known, they are as aware of the high probability of a congenital disease as in the case of the incestuous couple. So, how exactly do these cases differ, except for the fact that in one they have blood ties and in the other they do not? Is this a valid qualifier to treat them differently?

And while I am all for a little parenting responsibility and that people that have legitimate reasons for fearing a defect child should decide for not having them, it’s not a decision that I can take from their hands. Wouldn’t it be a little of eugenics, to make society decide who can have children with who for the purpose of “genetically perfect” babies?

Finally, saying that what is forbidden is not the incestuous relationship, just the incestuous marriage, is, again, to repeat the same fallacy as saying that what is forbidden is not homosexual relationship, but just homosexual marriage. All refutations of the later also work as refutation of the first.

In the end, it gets down to this: Incest was probably deemed wrong by ancients as they noticed, though experience, that it would lead to a higher percentage of defective children. The reason for why it happened has not changed – it still can generate that – but the approach from our society to this problem has. Today, individual rights have achieved prevalence over social command in private matters such as the sexual drive, and nothing but a deeply rooted tradition supports the forbiddance of such acts.

Traditions, however, are no excuse to block social advances that come from the evolution of society. So, although I don’t agree with incest on emotional grounds, I can’t validly counter it on logical grounds, hence it should be made legal. This is exactly the same position I take in the issue of abortion: don’t like it, wouldn’t do it, but I am not the moral paradigm of the mankind, and can’t force my standards over other people.

I change my vote to yes, just hoping that someone can come up with some good reason for me being wrong in this issue.

Regards :).
 
Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Let's think about the practical aspect. If incest was legal, fathers/mothers would start "educating" their children in a special way since a very early time. In that case, when the child is brainwashed to think a certain way throughout his education about his parents - how consentual is it when he is older?

Doesn't this fall under the same problems as "gay people shouldn't adopt, because their children would be educated in a 'special way' and become gay adults"?

The problem is that, first, it fails to explai exactly how being son of a brother and sister will make you want to marry your sister and second, it presumes being incestuous as being wrong and reprovable, what is not so easy to imply.

Regards :).
 
Doesn't this fall under the same problems as "gay people shouldn't adopt, because their children would be educated in a 'special way' and become gay adults"?

First of all, aren't we assuming there is nothing wrong with being gay? That it is a perfectly valid sexual orientation, such as heterosexual?
Secondly, no, it doesn't, since you are discussing the effects of education on sexual orientation, and I'm talking about parents using education as a means of exploiting their kids into incest.

The problem is that, first, it fails to explai exactly how being son of a brother and sister will make you want to marry your sister and second, it presumes being incestuous as being wrong and reprovable, what is not so easy to imply.

No, I didn't mean this concerning brother/sister incest - but cocerning parent/child incest. I don't persume incest as being wrong, I persume parents using their position to drive their kids to sexual relationships with them from early age as wrong.
 
Do, voted "yes" while wishing voting "no".

Incest is twisting one kind of natural love (family bonds) into another. There is also the fact that parents have authority over their children. It's abuse of power.
And finally, it's a choice, as Ponthius pointed. It's not something you're naturally inclined to.
 
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