Your government will only collapse through revolt if you are in Republic/Democracy, though there will be an incident (ie war) in any government.
Inciting Revolt/Subverting City
- Thread starter kundor
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I tried to search the message boards to find an answer to my following questions, and this topic seemed to be the closest.
If one's government is a Democracy, rather than a Republic, is it cheaper to incite revolt and subvert city? Secondly, I often poison the water supplies of cities that I plan to subvert until the city is a size 1. It is at the point that I subvert the city, for it is quite cheap, and the population is quickly gained back. My question is what exactly determines the price one pays to subvert a city? I would imagine that besides the size of the particular city, the city's improvements would also affect the price, but I could not come up with a consistent formula. Also, I noticed that if one subverts from different squares surrounding the city, the price will change...
If one's government is a Democracy, rather than a Republic, is it cheaper to incite revolt and subvert city? Secondly, I often poison the water supplies of cities that I plan to subvert until the city is a size 1. It is at the point that I subvert the city, for it is quite cheap, and the population is quickly gained back. My question is what exactly determines the price one pays to subvert a city? I would imagine that besides the size of the particular city, the city's improvements would also affect the price, but I could not come up with a consistent formula. Also, I noticed that if one subverts from different squares surrounding the city, the price will change...
starlifter
Deity
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I did not see a correct summary of this info with search, either. So here is a basic summary of Revolts/Subversions, and also for Bribes. Note: The Prima Guide is not correct.
Notes:
1. "Revolt" & "Subversion" are the 2 specific terms for taking a city with a Diplomat/Spy.
2. "Bribe" refers only to taking a unit with a Dip/Spy.
3. Therefore, for technical clarity, in this post, the term "bribe" will in no way refer to the taking of a city.
INCITE REVOLTS/SUBVERSIONS
Cost = CS * ( T + 1000 ) / ( D + 3 )
where:
CS = City Size
T = Treasury of Victim's civ.
D = Distance from Palace to spot you are comitting the bribe from
Formula Notes:
1. D = 16 if the target has no palace.
2. D = 50% of actual distance, if the target city has a courthouse.
3. D = 10 (maximum) if the target government is in Communism.
4. Capitals & Democratic Cities are immune from Revolts/Subversions.
Cost Modifiers (multiply all applicable percentages together):
Target city is in Civil Disorder -- 50%
Target has no garrison -- 50%
Originally your city -- 50%
Non-vet Spy does revolt/subversion -- 84%
Vet Spy does revolt/subversion -- 67%
Subversion -- 200% (subversion doubles the final cost).
General Notes:
1. Revolts will lose the Courthouses, Temples, Cathedrals.
2. Subversions will preserve the CH, TM, Cath.
3. Revolt/Subvertion will also take the target's units in (and adjacent to) the city (barbs and units of other civs are not affected).
4. Enemy units supported from that city, and not converted in the revolt/subversion, are disbanded.
5. The presence of a Spy inside a city will not prevent it from being revolted or subverted.
6. You will get your choice of advances from the enemy Civ (if any) for a revolt/subvertion.
7. Revolts may cause your gov't to fall.
8. Subversions will not cause an incident.
BRIBING UNITS
Cost = (( T + 750 ) / ( D + 2 )) * ( UC / 20 )
where:
T = Treasury of Victim (Target) civ (amount of Gold).
D = Distance from Palace to spot the victim occupies (diagonals = 1.5).
UC = Unit Cost of the Victim (# of shields, e.g. Rifleman=40).
Formula Notes:
1. D = 16 if the victim has no palace.
2. D = 16 if the victim is a barbarian.
3. D = 10 (maximum) if your own (the dip's/spy's) government is in Communism (this is not a misprint!).
4. Spies and Dips always survive a unit bribe.
5. Spies and Dips cannot gain Vet status by bribing units.
6. Vet status makes no difference in unit bribe costs.
7. Cost is doubled if the target unit is a settler/engineer.
8. Units of Democracies cannot be bribed by Dips/Spies (but can be "Contact Bribed" by military units: see special note).
9. Stacked units cannot be bribed.
Special note: the "Contact Bribe"
This is a special (and annoying) AI "cheat": it can cause a human's unit to "switch" sides with no cost to the AI. Any AI military unit can commit a Contact Bribe when they bump into ("meet" or "contact") your unit. There is a certain random chance the "contact bribe" will occur, and it does not matter if you are in Democracy. But AI diplomats are subject to the "no bribe" rule if the target unit is in Democracy. The best protection against the contact bribe is to simply stack important blockading units... a contact bribe cannot occur with a stacked unit. BTW, cities are not subject to the Contact Bribe.
2. Exact prices are determined as I've posted above. Other guides and publications (like the Manual and the Prima Guide) are wrong.
3. The price is a function of the distance from the AI capital to your Dip/Spy, when subverting/revolting. When close to the AI capital, this can make a big difference in cost. Far away, there is no difference (see forumulas and notes). For bribes, teh distance is measured from the victim's capital to the location of the victim. As always, the diagonals count as 1.5, not 1.0, when computing Distance.
EDIT: Correct and expound upon some Bribe issues, and give more detail on the 3 specific answers above. Ensured distinctions between revolt/subversion and bribe.
Notes:
1. "Revolt" & "Subversion" are the 2 specific terms for taking a city with a Diplomat/Spy.
2. "Bribe" refers only to taking a unit with a Dip/Spy.
3. Therefore, for technical clarity, in this post, the term "bribe" will in no way refer to the taking of a city.
INCITE REVOLTS/SUBVERSIONS
Cost = CS * ( T + 1000 ) / ( D + 3 )
where:
CS = City Size
T = Treasury of Victim's civ.
D = Distance from Palace to spot you are comitting the bribe from
Formula Notes:
1. D = 16 if the target has no palace.
2. D = 50% of actual distance, if the target city has a courthouse.
3. D = 10 (maximum) if the target government is in Communism.
4. Capitals & Democratic Cities are immune from Revolts/Subversions.
Cost Modifiers (multiply all applicable percentages together):
Target city is in Civil Disorder -- 50%
Target has no garrison -- 50%
Originally your city -- 50%
Non-vet Spy does revolt/subversion -- 84%
Vet Spy does revolt/subversion -- 67%
Subversion -- 200% (subversion doubles the final cost).
General Notes:
1. Revolts will lose the Courthouses, Temples, Cathedrals.
2. Subversions will preserve the CH, TM, Cath.
3. Revolt/Subvertion will also take the target's units in (and adjacent to) the city (barbs and units of other civs are not affected).
4. Enemy units supported from that city, and not converted in the revolt/subversion, are disbanded.
5. The presence of a Spy inside a city will not prevent it from being revolted or subverted.
6. You will get your choice of advances from the enemy Civ (if any) for a revolt/subvertion.
7. Revolts may cause your gov't to fall.
8. Subversions will not cause an incident.
BRIBING UNITS
Cost = (( T + 750 ) / ( D + 2 )) * ( UC / 20 )
where:
T = Treasury of Victim (Target) civ (amount of Gold).
D = Distance from Palace to spot the victim occupies (diagonals = 1.5).
UC = Unit Cost of the Victim (# of shields, e.g. Rifleman=40).
Formula Notes:
1. D = 16 if the victim has no palace.
2. D = 16 if the victim is a barbarian.
3. D = 10 (maximum) if your own (the dip's/spy's) government is in Communism (this is not a misprint!).
4. Spies and Dips always survive a unit bribe.
5. Spies and Dips cannot gain Vet status by bribing units.
6. Vet status makes no difference in unit bribe costs.
7. Cost is doubled if the target unit is a settler/engineer.
8. Units of Democracies cannot be bribed by Dips/Spies (but can be "Contact Bribed" by military units: see special note).
9. Stacked units cannot be bribed.
Special note: the "Contact Bribe"
This is a special (and annoying) AI "cheat": it can cause a human's unit to "switch" sides with no cost to the AI. Any AI military unit can commit a Contact Bribe when they bump into ("meet" or "contact") your unit. There is a certain random chance the "contact bribe" will occur, and it does not matter if you are in Democracy. But AI diplomats are subject to the "no bribe" rule if the target unit is in Democracy. The best protection against the contact bribe is to simply stack important blockading units... a contact bribe cannot occur with a stacked unit. BTW, cities are not subject to the Contact Bribe.
1. One's own Gov't is not a factor when revolting/subverting the enemy. If Bribing, your government will not affect the cost unless your are in Communism -- then the cost to bribe enemy units will go up if they are more than Distance=10 from their capital. This behavior is not intuitive, and is likely the result of a programmer screwing up the bribe forumula... you would expect the victim's (target of your dip/spy) gov't being in Communism to affect the victim's bribe cost, not your own Gov't being in Communism!
2. Exact prices are determined as I've posted above. Other guides and publications (like the Manual and the Prima Guide) are wrong.
3. The price is a function of the distance from the AI capital to your Dip/Spy, when subverting/revolting. When close to the AI capital, this can make a big difference in cost. Far away, there is no difference (see forumulas and notes). For bribes, teh distance is measured from the victim's capital to the location of the victim. As always, the diagonals count as 1.5, not 1.0, when computing Distance.
EDIT: Correct and expound upon some Bribe issues, and give more detail on the 3 specific answers above. Ensured distinctions between revolt/subversion and bribe.
starlifter
Deity
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No problem. Myself or someone else should have done it much sooner.... I was really suprised the search function didn't pull up a post explaining the basics. The base formulas are in teh Prima Guide, although the PG is wrong about a lot of details, mainly due to changes in the game and game balance since Civ 2 was first released. However, the above post, barring typos, should be correct for Civ 2.42 and 5.4.0f (Classic & MGE).
SlowThinker
Prince
Hm, starlifter, I am short of time an I will continue to repair my Info: dip/spy after Nethog's chart will be finished, but I must post some comments now:
D = 10 (maximum) if the dip's/spy's government is Communism.
I think that
D = 16 if the target has no palace...
I am sure that 4.10 in Info: diplomats and spies is valid, in other words
D = 10 (maximum) if the dip's/spy's government is Communism.
I think that
D = 16 if the target has no palace...
starlifter
Deity
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- 4,210
You are correct; I went back to my notes and checked, then went to a test game just to make sure both your comment and my old notes were correct. Under Civ 2 MGE, 5.4,0f, it was confirmable. I also had 2 other errors in my original post concerning the formula and notes, and all are now corrected and check with tests.
I've also added a lot more detail (verbage) in the explanations so people will hopefully not be too confused by the Manual, Prima Guide, and other published sources.
Thanks Slow Thinker!
funxus
Orange Cycloptic Blob
Something else that is good with bribing is that the AI, if your relations are not very bad, wants to talk to you, the way they want to talk to you if you capture a city with troops. If you're allready at peace and subverted the city, they still want to talk to you but got nothing to say
HangingChadDad
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- Nov 19, 2004
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I have a question regarding this subject EXCEPT I'm interested in what it costs the AI to do each of the above? I've tried to trace these things by cheating or using the embassy function, but really can't define the math of it. Since this series of posts was so well defined, I was hoping someone else knew what the relationship was. I'm pretty sure that it is MUCH CHEAPER for the AI.. in fact it seems to be totally free or nearly so in many cases.
Sorry for posting on such an old thread, but of course there isn't exactly a hot topics of Civ II (I still like playing Civ II even though I own III and IV
) .. If I'm not supposed to post to this thread, feel free to make this a new Civ II thread with a link to this thread. Thanks.
Sorry for posting on such an old thread, but of course there isn't exactly a hot topics of Civ II (I still like playing Civ II even though I own III and IV
) .. If I'm not supposed to post to this thread, feel free to make this a new Civ II thread with a link to this thread. Thanks.Its entirely fine to revive old threads if you have a valid question.
It wouldn't surprise me if the computer doesn't pay gold to bribe cities; the AI cheats in a myriad of ways to make it a half decent competator against humans, including, but not limited to, getting free shields and money periodically, and being able to fire missiles from any "platform," regardless of the actual location of the missile.
If I had to guess, I would say that there is probably a function that will have the computer bribe a city with its diplomat if certain conditions are met, instead of using a different function.
Defenses against this are to switch to democracy, build courthouses and/or avoid having small cities where they are easily accessable by diplomats.
It wouldn't surprise me if the computer doesn't pay gold to bribe cities; the AI cheats in a myriad of ways to make it a half decent competator against humans, including, but not limited to, getting free shields and money periodically, and being able to fire missiles from any "platform," regardless of the actual location of the missile.
If I had to guess, I would say that there is probably a function that will have the computer bribe a city with its diplomat if certain conditions are met, instead of using a different function.
Defenses against this are to switch to democracy, build courthouses and/or avoid having small cities where they are easily accessable by diplomats.
HangingChadDad
Chieftain
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hehe.. ya I'm aware a lot of AI "cheating" goes on.. I know for one thing that it doesn't take a diplomat to bribe a city... any unit seems to be able to do it (and "investigate city" too) .. as far as I can tell only time a dip is needed is for stealing techs.. I have looked at the thread in the intro section (forget what its called.. not AI cheats, but "oddities" or something like that) and didn't find this particular issue addressed unless its been added in the last year or so.. ok well thanks..
Plus the AI government doesn't collapse due to cities in disorder.. I've tried to knock them out of democracy by causing disorder, but it doesn't make their gov't collapse.
.... hmmm... I see starlifter says "no" to the contact bribe to cities..I'll have to examine that, but I SWEAR that I've had cities bribed without dips being used..
And a fortified dip or spy homed to the city can usually stop tech steals but not city bribes.. I don't know how universal that statement is, but I'm pretty sure it at least sometimes is true
Plus the AI government doesn't collapse due to cities in disorder.. I've tried to knock them out of democracy by causing disorder, but it doesn't make their gov't collapse.
.... hmmm... I see starlifter says "no" to the contact bribe to cities..I'll have to examine that, but I SWEAR that I've had cities bribed without dips being used..
And a fortified dip or spy homed to the city can usually stop tech steals but not city bribes.. I don't know how universal that statement is, but I'm pretty sure it at least sometimes is true
SlowThinker
Prince
link to "Info: Diplomats and spies", (posted on Jul 09, 2002, 01:42 AM) works now.
HangingChadDad
Chieftain
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Sorry SlowThinker, but that link is pretty much useless for me. It takes me to a site that contains a long "change log" type messages, but no link to actual information works.. it only takes me to "Page not found" links
SlowThinker
Prince
It is strange, it works for me.
So I made the text available also from here: post 5 of the "Info: Diplomats and Spies" thread
It still doesn't work Slowthinker.....so I try to add a link to the thread I think you mention:
Diplomats and spies thread
Diplomats and spies thread
SlowThinker
Prince
Magic_gorter, you sent a link to the archive thread - its only asset is its last post links to the newer thread.
Anyway i corrected my last link now.
HangingChadDad
Chieftain
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- Nov 19, 2004
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Well I THINK I am now working it "properly". The instructions here appear to be needlessly complex. Once I figured out that what you actually were showing was not the thread at all OR ANY OF THE LINKS but instead was the downloadable .txt file to be renamed .htm file in post 5 (I hope this is the latest. haha), it works fine. You might try to edit the thread to make clear WHAT to do to GET INFO (separate from what to do to CHANGE the info) and put the downloadable info in the FIRST post if possible.
The posts are very confusing with many links, code text, posts, deleted info, etc. Now that that I THINK I understand ... I'm a slowthinker too.. ... I can see how the thread evolved. But for the best RESOURCE it should be aimed at GETTING THE DOCUMENTATION first, MODIFYING it properly second. I hope I'm making clear what I mean. I am not trying to be negative.
The links that I could not make work were the "source" and auxilliary links. I think my original question about failed links were wrong.. you can delete that discussion if you like. I did not understand how to use the thread. The links of importance work properly .. even though there are a lot of "broken" links, they aren't important to what you are doing here.
Thanks for all the work you've done to make this information available over the years. I'm sure all who look will appreciate what you've done.
If I'm not making myself clear, please ask.. thanks again
The posts are very confusing with many links, code text, posts, deleted info, etc. Now that that I THINK I understand ... I'm a slowthinker too..
... I can see how the thread evolved. But for the best RESOURCE it should be aimed at GETTING THE DOCUMENTATION first, MODIFYING it properly second. I hope I'm making clear what I mean. I am not trying to be negative.The links that I could not make work were the "source" and auxilliary links. I think my original question about failed links were wrong.. you can delete that discussion if you like. I did not understand how to use the thread. The links of importance work properly .. even though there are a lot of "broken" links, they aren't important to what you are doing here.
Thanks for all the work you've done to make this information available over the years. I'm sure all who look will appreciate what you've done.
If I'm not making myself clear, please ask.. thanks again
SlowThinker
Prince
(This post is not important)
When i made it it was possible to edit existing attachment but it was impossible to add an attachment to a post without.
So I added an empty attachment to post 1, because I expected later i might want to add something important there.
But now the forum works conversely - i cannot change attachment of post 1, i can add new attachments.
It is not possible.
When i made it it was possible to edit existing attachment but it was impossible to add an attachment to a post without.So I added an empty attachment to post 1, because I expected later i might want to add something important there.
But now the forum works conversely - i cannot change attachment of post 1, i can add new attachments.
(This post is not important)
It is not possible.
So I added an empty attachment to post 1, because I expected later i might want to add something important there.
But now the forum works conversely - i cannot change attachment of post 1, i can add new attachments.
I can still change excisting attachments Slowthinker (don't know if it's because I'm moderator)....
If you want to change an excisting attachment go that post and press edit. Then press advanced.....
When scrolling down you can see a button manage attachments and above that button a link to any attachments already in that post. When pressing on the manage attachment button you get a new screen. The first options are only to add new files but directly under that you can chose to remove the original attachment. So to change the attachment you must remove the old one and add (replace) it with a new one.
