Incoherent (or trend-break within) personal narrative

[Hygro]

How do you feel when someone's life choices break their narrative coherence? How would you feel if your life choices broke your narrative coherence? Would it annoy you? Offend you? Offer you hope or reduce hope?

 

[Synobun]

Everyone's life choices break their narrative so I am mostly indifferent to the discrepancy itself. All I expect is recognition of the fact. Most don't recognize this fact so my expectations are rarely met.

My choices always go against my narrative.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Define "narrative coherence."

 

[Hygro]

Coherence in summing your life up narratively, validating the past thru the present/future.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Clear. As. Mud.

Summing up my life narratively I get. Validation I don't get.

 

[red_elk]

How would you feel if your life choices broke your narrative coherence? Would it annoy you? Offend you? Offer you hope or reduce hope?

Does it mean I choose to do something inconsistent with what I thought to be my worldview and internal values?
I think I would need to "repair damage" by rationalizing it. May need a good amount of self-criticism to do it.

How do you feel when someone's life choices break their narrative coherence?

I wouldn't care if it's not someone close to me.

 

[Kyriakos]

Depends on what degree of 'coherence' one means. Some people have strong principles they rarely - if ever - go against. Depending on type of principle, this can be positive or crazy.
I mean... some people function under full OCD.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Define "narrative coherence."

I second this.

Can you give us an example of "life choices which break their narrative coherence"? Is this a fancy way of saying "engaging in hypocrisy" or "applying a double standard" or "cognitive dissonance"? Something else?

 

[Lexicus]

How would you feel if your life choices broke your narrative coherence? Would it annoy you? Offend you? Offer you hope or reduce hope?

My life choices break my narrative coherence all the time, it mostly results in self-loathing

 

[Hrothbern]

Principles can be quite restricting, up to inedible and masochistic.
A set world view and idea who I am quite suffocating, especially when you are young.

In how far can I just plunge hungrily forward and see what comes of it ?
A bit of trust in myself.
How tolerant am I to myself, to the people around me ?
How much room do I give to challenge myself in my comfort bubble ?
How much time do I have for myself when too busy to be a decent provider for my own family, a reliable anchor to give structure to my kids, a stable partnership (at least for that period) and a reliable trustworthy colleague ?

And even when I got it sorted out to a fair degree to myself and start raising a family... and those kids are growing into quite another narrative ?
Do I beat it out of them.... or soft social dominance, brainwash them.... or do I close my eyes.... or learn some tolerance ?

For me tolerance is key.

 

[civvver]

My life choices fit my personal narrative almost perfectly. I guess I'm boring.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

It depends on the level but since I am a perfectionist, it does often result in a lot of personal frustration and despair and pacing around talking to myself aloud.

 

[Farm Boy]

I second this.

Can you give us an example of "life choices which break their narrative coherence"? Is this a fancy way of saying "engaging in hypocrisy" or "applying a double standard" or "cognitive dissonance"? Something else?

Can't speak for Hygro, but I interpret this as thus:

You are a mammal in the moment. You have comfort, hunger, sensations, desires, urges, needs, impressions, emotions, etc. Over time, you are a person, and internally, that person is a narrative story you tell yourself about yourself. When you wake up in the morning what does your story tell you to do? You brush your teeth because.... things you remember and things you want to either happen or not, like you want nice breath, you don't want bad breath, and you don't want another cavity like the one you had filled in '07, etc. Your principles, such as you have them, your ethics, such as you have them at least if they're reasonably complex - are part of your narrative. You have narratives about other people too, and you'll match what you observe them doing against what they say their narrative is - case in point:

I was reading some random article yesterday about people trying to build statistical models regarding when religious vs religious and religious vs secular strife breaks out. So essentially, trying to model out a secular doctrine of policy to pursue, or at least a cause/effect. Within this modeling exercise, they started trying to figure out why certain (what they termed without defining it) "extremist" sects flourished, while others died out. The strongest factor to these groups turned out to be not just a charismatic leader, but a charismatic leader that personally practices what he preaches. A leader with a coherent narrative - i.e. not a feckless lie. Bear in mind, the modelers of the secular study then concluded that this was an effective assassination criteria thus further proving that the more entrenched secular narratives become, the more indistinguishable they act from the groups that the actual word (secular) sets them apart from.

Personally to the OP? I guess I'm disappointed in myself rather severely when I don't live up to my principles. I might rationalize being lazy when I break them in small ways, the world is complicated and it's impossible to perfectly live up to them all the time, but I'm pretty sure it would break the person I've spent 37 years becoming if I intentionally didn't live up to them in a big way. I like the person I've honed myself into being. I've worked hard at it, and it's not been free. But I think it's been rewarding nonetheless and for the best. Like-minded people the build their principles and stick to them make good friends and family if they have compatible principles. People without principles? Well, if they're a toddler you help them build some. If they're an adult? They useless people at best, and actively malicious at worst. Drop them like an STD.

 

[Sommerswerd]

My life choices fit my personal narrative almost perfectly.

Say wha?

I couldn't resist

@Farm Boy - So like I was thinking...fancy way of saying "engaging in hypocrisy" or "applying a double standard" or "cognitive dissonance" or as you put it more eloquently... "Practicing what you preach."

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I don't like it. It suggests I should update either my narrative or my choices. Sometimes which of those to update is more obvious than others. When I don't actually update choices, updating understanding of my narrative is the only sensible option. If I'm not making choice x, no pretending that making choice x is a property of my reality. That perception changes if and only if I start making it consistently.

I'm not willing to ignore dissonance between belief and reality when I notice it, not even for myself. It leads to making some conclusions I'd prefer not to be true, but it's better than hiding from them...and if otherwise were really part of my narrative I would have made choices accordingly.

I do expect some coherence out of others too. It doesn't offend me when people lack it, but it does annoy me a little. It's not a deal breaker for interacting with someone day to day by any stretch, but it is a significant flaw.

 

[Farm Boy]

I'm not sure I'm trying to be fancy, but core concepts wind up being hard to nail down. I'm almost tempted to qualify this one under the core concept of "work." IE, doing something you don't necessarily want to do in the moment(I don't particularly get off on the act of brushing my teeth) in order to have an outcome you want in a future moment. If it's for yourself you might call it wisdom or deferred enjoyment. If it's for other people you might call it "good" or "altruism."

A misleading narrative, such as a kid diddling priest, often enough falls under "evil" or "wicked" at worst, maybe "faithless" in the middle, or in minor ways maybe "selfish," "thoughtless," or "flaky" or the like. Even with "flaky" it's not the same judgement as "absentminded" though the outcomes might be similar. There's a narrative difference.

 

[Ryika]

Last weekend I had been drawing for like... 6 hours when my friend suddenly said: "Wow, you're productive today.", and I was like: "What? No, I'm not.". But later I thought about it and realized that I was, indeed, being productive on that day. That shocked me, because my general goal in life is being lazy and just enjoying the ride that is life; not aspiring to anything so I don't actually have to do anything so to speak. But there and then, my body made me realize how much of a goal-oriented person I am on the inside. I don't want to be, so I went right back to being lazy and haven't drawn a single stroke since then.

Still, that was a shock. Changing who you are is harder than I had ever thought, because it's basically you forcing a new narrative onto yourself.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Still, that was a shock. Changing who you are is harder than I had ever thought, because it's basically you forcing a new narrative onto yourself.

Forcing a new narrative on yourself is only as hard as you make it. If you're willing to accept your narrative as a simple causal outflow of your choices made to that point, it's not that hard. You can use that to predict future choices you make, and if you're doing that decently those predictions will be accurate. If they're not, perceived narrative =/= real narrative.

I admit that going through a major life-changing set of events helped in my case though. I was in a position where rejecting reality was increasingly less of an option, accepted that about myself, only to find out I had a correctable medical issue causing nearly all of the struggle. But having experienced that once, it's not as hard to do it again. The choices you made ARE your narrative, and the choices you make in the future will alter that narrative. Perception that is inconsistent with that is generally harmful.

More challenging, perhaps, is to commit to making new choices to define the narrative in a way you subjectively prefer and actually continuing on to make those choices. People do it, but this one isn't trivial even when you know how depending on the choices in question .

 

[Sommerswerd]

I'm not willing to ignore dissonance between belief and reality when I notice it, not even for myself.

I think dissonance is the "natural" response. You really have to be vigilant and actively resist it. Its not easy at all, so I try not to fault people too much when they can't or won't resist that tendancy.

I'm not sure I'm trying to be fancy, but core concepts wind up being hard to nail down.

If @Hygro had titled this thread something more provocative, like "Are you a lousy stinking hypocrite sometimes? You are! Aren't you ashamed of yourself?!" I don't think it would have been as fruitful in terms of provoking thoughtful discussion. So don't worry about any fanciness... whether you call it fancy-talk, or political correctness, or being diplomatic, or civility, or legalese... whatever it is... it works sometimes to take the edge off things and speak in less blunt/direct words/tones.

Last weekend I had been drawing for like... 6 hours when my friend suddenly said: "Wow, you're productive today.", and I was like: "What? No, I'm not.". But later I thought about it and realized that I was, indeed, being productive on that day. That shocked me, because my general goal in life is being lazy and just enjoying the ride that is life; not aspiring to anything so I don't actually have to do anything so to speak. But there and then, my body made me realize how much of a goal-oriented person I am on the inside. I don't want to be, so I went right back to being lazy and haven't drawn a single stroke since then.

This reminds me of the movie Office Space when they are asking each other "What would you do if you had a million dollars" and the first guy starts talking about all the ways he would invest it to make more money. The second guy yells at him and tells him that's not the point of the exercise as you're supposed to say what you would actually do. But I always thought that was wrong. I think it just meant that the Samir character should be a investment banker or stockbroker, because that was obviously what he would like doing if he had the money to do it.

 

[civvver]

This reminds me of the movie Office Space when they are asking each other "What would you do if you had a million dollars" and the first guy starts talking about all the ways he would invest it to make more money. The second guy yells at him and tells him that's not the point of the exercise as you're supposed to say what you would actually do. But I always thought that was wrong. I think it just meant that the Samir character should be a investment banker or stockbroker, because that was obviously what he would like doing if he had the money to do it.

Except so many people don't know what they are working for or towards. You see as kind of a fad now these young professionals who subscribe to the idea of being completely debt free, maxing all their retirement accounts and retiring super early like under 40. I always think ok, that's good, but why? Then what? I think most of them it's just a goal to brag about, and they aren't really considering the lifestyle change. If your goal is to retire at 40 so you can watch netflix all day ok cool. If the goal is so you can be a stay at home parent or something, that makes sense. If the goal is so you can travel and vacation 9 months out of the year that's awesome too but possibly requires a lot more money than just your bare minimum to retire. I don't think people consider this.