incremental patch discussion

[keldath]

wow thank you david,
im am going to check everything you noted here,
and c;lear this,

i gotta say that i wasnt that happy with renaming everything, cause of refferences to revo'.

lets go with option one,

i will create a fix patch now.


****

great work david!!!

you are right - the revdefs.py was the reason for the crash, i confirmed it 100%,
i commented out the lines with # it needs to be replaced with something else - i tried - but failed..

also fixed the other stuff you found.

thanks alot buddy,

i will upload a new patch 1.3.9b very soon.

 

[Ahriman]

If you turn on python exceptions

I coulda sworn I had python exceptions on.... I must have not turned it back on when I did a reinstall a while back. Will do so.

I'd also suggest that the Revolutions mod doesn't make a ton of sense in this setting. Its not really like houses are going to be splintering into civil war, and the archipelago mapscript means that nearly every city you have is a "colony", which gives very large revolution penalties.

Also, the revolutions civics modifiers (ie which ones are good and bad for stability) don't really make sense with the Dunewars civics. There needs to be a big civics redesign at some point for this mod.

I'd just remove it from the mod.

 

[keldath]

well,

i dont really mind having, and not having revolution mod, its just that many players like this components so why note make it available to them..?

but, if everyone wants, ill make revolution unavailable to use on dune wars.

ill upload the fixed patch i n an hour.



**************

hi,
heres the new fixed 1.3.9b :

http://www.mediafire.com/file/5y3z4xtdyaj/dune-wars-patch-1-3-9b.exe

- fixed crash - commented out lines in revdefs.py
-shock trooper now can see invisible fedaykin and naibs chosen
-replaced spacing guild to spread instead of the ixian one.

 

[davidlallen]

I have spent several hours today basically just staring at the lists of units, buildings and bonuses. I feel that the mod has become way too complex, without any benefit. But I cannot quantify why I feel this way. Here are some numbers.

BTS has 130 buildings plus 30 UB. DW has 145 buildings plus 45 UB.
BTS has 70 units plus 30 UU. DW has 60 units plus 35 UU.
BTS has 35 bonuses. DW has 39.

These numbers do not show any astonishing difference. The only place I can find a big difference is number of UU+UB per civ. In BTS, each civ has 1 UU and 1 UB. So it is easy to see what is unique about that civ. In DW, each civ has average 3 UU and 4 UB. It takes a while to study why one civ is unique, and mostly, the UU and UB do not provide any consistent "theme", they are just random small advantages.

I retract my "hold" on 1.3.10. I do not have any immediate plan for a patch release. I think I'll go play a vanilla pangaea or something for a while.

 

[Lord Tirian]

i dont really mind having, and not having revolution mod, its just that many players like this components so why note make it available to them..?

Because it's a bit of clutter: Just because many players like it, it doesn't mean it will fit - after all, they like it in vanilla Civ. This isn't vanilla Civ, nor should it be.

In my opinion, a mod needs a strong theme and some core ideas and revolve around that, just adding more things (even if they're individually very good) won't help - I think FfH2 is a good example for that, because it - largely - avoided the "add more"-trap: They cut down their overly complex spell system (divine/arcane split), cooperations and espionage. Are they saying that these things were bad? No, but they weren't needed to create the theme, look and feel, they tried to keep the essentials and then make them shine.

But I cannot quantify why I feel this way.

I feel a bit the same, one of the reasons why I haven't gone into this mod with full enthusiasm (except for Del's great art stuff): BtS works, because everything fits the theme of different epochs (ancient, medieval etc.), in Dune Wars, a lot is a bit like vanilla with a different paintjob, but only one theme - Dune. Meaning it feels like a lot more, because there's no larger organising principle - by the way, I think the resources are okay, the buildings and units are the problem - they need to be slimmed down, a lot of units feel like "unit before, but with more power" - Final Frontier also suffered from this for me. In Civ4 you'd never think of confusing a club-wielding cavemen with a swordsmen - flavour, strategic resources and small bonuses all play together and make it feel like more than "unit with some extra stuff". Ditto buildings. But I can't really put my finger onto it - because there is just so much material.

Note: I'm *not* a fan of the mods that just add a lot more stuff and options to the game - I prefer the sleeker, more themed and focussed ones. That's why I like FfH2, Planetfall and Legends of Revolution - they don't just grab as much stuff as possible, they have strong themes and only have things that work with that (and FfH2 is probably the most polished, most beautiful way of doing that - they have a lot of stuff, but only because every Civ is its own theme - meaning if you play, it's rather slim, as you only play one Civ/theme at once). And vanilla Civ4 works - because it's whole theme is "playing six millennia of world history". Dune Wars isn't doing that, its theme is - in a nutshell (deep apologies to all fans of the book, I know that I'm vastly oversimplifying it for the sake of the rhetoric) - "drug-addicted nobles battle on a desert planet for more drugs".

Not that the mods with lots of things are bad, they're just not my taste - for me a mod needs to be as complex as it needs to be to create its specific flavour - and no more!

Cheers, LT.

 

[Ahriman]

Agree with Tirian's design philosophy, and that there are too many buildings here and that the units don't really make sense.

I think the buildings and units need to be rationalized, ideally so that the factions actually play differently in a military sense, like Fremen having desert superiority and melee units, but no artillery and few vehicles, and maybe Harks having slow heavy tanks but weaker city defenders, and the guild having good air units and tranports, and Atriedes having good light skirmish units, etc.

Something also must not be right with my install of 1.3.9, I am not getting any sandworms or storms, and terraforming seems to be broken (have had catchbasins built for 20+ turns and not a single tile has changed).

Are these things all created by python - could it be my python isn't loading properly? Is there any other obvious way I could check this?

I'm also finding the landing stages aren't actually buildable (the sapho one is, but thats it, non of the civ-specific ones).

 

[davidlallen]

Something also must not be right with my install of 1.3.9, I am not getting any sandworms or storms, and terraforming seems to be broken (have had catchbasins built for 20+ turns and not a single tile has changed).

I am sure you have double-checked that python exceptions are on. Please try introducing a python error by adding some nonsense characters to the start of file assets/python/dunewars.py using notepad. This should give you a popup and also log information into My Games/Beyond The Sword/logs/PythonErr.log. Once you have proven that stuff is getting logged, I am sure you must be getting some kind of python error. That is the only thing I can think of which would prevent worms, storms, and terraforming.

 

[Ahriman]

*edit*
Oops, nevermind, I was editing my backup of the ini file instead of the actual ini file.

I'm an idiot.

Am now getting a ton pf python exception popups:

(note that revolutions is off in this game)

Spoiler :

Traceback
File "CvGameInterface", line 154 in cannotConstruct
File "CvGameUtils", line 279 in cannotConstruct
File "DuneWars", line 22 in cannotConstruct
File "DuneWars", line 85 in cannotConstruct
File "DuneWars", line 295 in Initizalize
File "DuneWars", line 258 in GetCheckInfo
File "FuneWars", line 278 in DebputPrint
IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied 'callstats.csv' (or civstats, can't read my writing)

Spoiler :

Attribute Error: 'Nonetype' object has no attritubte 'get Description'

Spoiler :

File "UnitUtil", line 69 in init

Spoiler :

File "BugUtil", line 496 in call

Spoiler :

File "BugUtil", line 479 in__call__

Spoiler :

File "BugInit", line 94, in callInits

But why would I be getting a ton of python errors with this patch when other people aren't?

 

[Ahriman]

And at the end of the turn:

File "CvEventInterface", line 30 in onEvent
File "BugEventManager", line 227 in handleEvent
File "BugEventManager", line 327 in_dispatchEvent
File "BugEventManager", line 339 in_handleDefaultEvent
File "DuneWars", line 163 in onImprovementBuilt

Attribute Error:
Dunewars instance has no attribute 'dfresh'

 

[davidlallen]

Am now getting a ton pf python exception popups:

Well, getting the exceptions is definitely progress. I guess you are writing down the text and then typing it in; you may find it much less painful to look into file My Documents/My Games/Beyond The Sword/logs/PythonErr.log and cut/paste the text instead.

I think there are two problems affecting you. The first is that keldath has changed a unit name in one place but not another, causing a failure. The second is that in trying to write a message about the failure, my code is trying to open a file which cannot be opened.

I am afraid you will have to edit a local file. Please try, it is really not painful. Open assets/python/DuneWars.py and go to line 294:

self.iURevMo = self.GetCheckInfo("UNIT_REVEREND_MOTHER")

Change the spelling to UNIT_REVMOTHER. Save. Re-run. Does this fix your problem?

 

[keldath]

hey guys,

well...i dont think the units are complex, its just that each faction have more units and building the other civ dont hjave.

its not really complex, once you play a game - you get it.


also - i dont agree with too many building or unit over vanilla, this is a mod and mods mostly add more stuff.

i agree some more tweaks should be made but with the current unit structure , for now , i am quite happy.
i do not wish to trim the mod more, i like other players, not happy to play a mod that barley has buildings, or too simple unit tree.
see planetfall, theres much more stuff there....i dont see any problems with more stuff,
i accept the term, less is more, but up to a point....no need to be cheap.
we can just reduce the output of all of the buildings so you need more kinds of buildings, instead of one that gives you a big value, that can solve "the too many buldings".

its wierd that you getting python errors cause i dont, well atleast after patch 1.3.9b.

most of the errors i guess are conneced to the renaming of every tag in the mod, so we just need to find all the references.

ive tested the latest patch and it pretty working and stable, at least on my end.

 

[Ahriman]

I was still on 1.3.9a, I hadn't seen b (the perils of post-edits, they're easy to miss).

Will try b, it looks like it fixes more than the revmother issue.

 

[keldath]

yap, i fixed the rev mother and some other stuff reported by david.

have fun.


****
ok, i read more of the posts above,
we can do that some unit class wont be avilble for some factions and vise versa - for instance as suggested, fremen doesnt have artillery units - but then again what will fill in the sige unit for them?

if you wanna make a completley different army for each civ, we need to sit and write a game plan for all of them, using the current units as basis.

also buildings - if we reduce buildings - some techs and eras can become a bit boring, i dont want that - so in order to keep the current buildings - we can just reduce the bonuses and values of other buldings - meaning - instead of having one building that gives 20% gold - we can have two buildings that each give 10%, so there will be alwyas something to build, and the game wont be boring.

im also not a fan of great added stuff like rise of man,
but we have to remember, we are playing civ, not dune, to less stuff will be boring.

most players prefer bigger mods - see the amount of dl of ech mod, youll see that a mod with tons of stuff in it - gets more dls in total.



goddluck to us all,
i belive that eventually together we can have some of the more unique mods availble.

 

[Ahriman]

The b patch fixed my issues.

but then again what will fill in the sige unit for them?

THats the point; they don't get them. The melee units ignore city defense; Fremen should be a melee-heavy faction. Maybe they could get the mortar, since its easy to see infantry carrying around mortars but none of the others.

using the current units as basis.

I haven't yet fully investigated how you've tweaked the units, but the old gameplan was not a good basis. Lots of weird unit roles (rovers as city defenders?) and the like. There needs to be a redesign of the core (which you may have already done) before redesigning faction UUs.

I've posted sketches of a design in the units thread.

most players prefer bigger mods - see the amount of dl of ech mod, youll see that a mod with tons of stuff in it - gets more dls in total.

IIRC FFH and Rhyes have more downloads than probably every other mod put together. Both of them are pretty simple mods; Rhyes uses vanilla BTS, and the FFH design is very efficient (few units and buildings).

 

[keldath]

i see,

i like this way of units you speak off.

well, lets have a layout of the unit classes and their tech position,
and then wee will turn to the uu themselfs.

ill look for the post you made.

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

Some resources rarely show up.
Diamonds and uranium are very rare to none existant and it seems they are required for quite a lot of units acording to the civpedia.

other resources are:
coffee, incense, dates, etchin resin, spice honey and baradye. Ive never seen them in the game. I even tried regenariting the map lots of times to see if they would pop up.
I guess its cause they replace calender resources wich in vannilla only appear in jungle terrain, wich isnt on the map.

Do we really want sandtrout and little makers?
the only one to use little makers are the fremen and BG for there RM. little makers could just as wel be provided by an UB. Giving happines for the fremen and some science boost for the BG.
Sandtrout in the books are only used by fremen either as food or candy, and I think some of them are kept till they grow in little makers.

Sandstorms really annoy me. they destroy everything all the time and keep the AI from developing their land. currently sandstorms cant attack and the player can protect his land by just placing units on the improved tiles.
Maybey defense grids can keep sandstorms from destrying the first ring of hte bfc, and later castles can protect the whole bfc. In the books the shields from the empire fleet seem to protect against the storm.


Food-healthbuildings between () are extra functions they could have.
Foodprocesing: health. (+5% water)
watercache: health and acts as a granery (+5% water)
watersilo: no effect at all (10% water or merge it with the watercache)
Windpass: +1 trade route (+2 water)
windtrap: UB for fremen +2 water (availleble to all civs)
catchbassin:required for terraforming victory. (UB for the fremen and give +2 water and 15% water, give reservoir of liet its function and make terra victory require a project to win)
qanat: +2 health (+10% water)
Bank: 50% commerce (call it waterbank: gives 50% commerce and water)

Watersources. I really would like to see less of them. or at least make the meagre the most common, and hte other ones rare.

 

[Ahriman]

ill look for the post you made.

Post 11:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325388

post 43:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325388&page=3

In particular, suspensor units need to be weaker. These are basically your naval units/escorts, they shouldn't also be able to go toe-to-toe with similar tech land units. Multiple movement points are *incredibly* valuable in a game that doesn't have any roads; so infantry really are limited to their 1 tile move per turn. Consequently you should have to pay more in terms of weaker combat strength and/or hammer cost for the suspensor tanks.
Rovers/quads etc. should be the high movement combat units on land.

I'd also suggest having the units grouped more concisely into ages, and balanced appropriately.

Some resources rarely show up.

I've seen plenty of diamonds. I've never seen a single coffee/honey/insects etc

I think sand trout are neat but need to give a water bonus, but I think the Little Makers don't make sense as a map resource. Just let the BG build Reverend mothers with the Water of Life tech.

Workers still can't build desert compounds though, so these resources are still useless.

In the books the shields from the empire fleet seem to protect against the storm.

IIRC its not energy shields so much as the Shield Wall, which is a mountain range that shields the general inhabited region from the storms that go through most of Dune.

Windpass:

I have no idea what this building is supposed to represent; in the books its a geographic feature on Arrakis (its a pass that the wind comes through; basically a gap in the mountains).

Water Discipline wonder could give water rather than extra great people. It doesn't really make sense as a great people generator.

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

In the books when paul attacks the emperor. The highliners are on the ground and protected by shields wich keep out the storm and make it relativly calm/safe in the area for people to walk outside.

Waterdiscipline civic should give a 10% water boost to cities instead of an increased corperation maintenance
any comments on the suggestions for the buildings?

 

[keldath]

well - i guess the lack of the certain bonuses, is due to the mapgenerator,py.

need to be checked.

thanks for the feedback.

 

[davidlallen]

Sandstorms really annoy me. they destroy everything all the time and keep the AI from developing their land. currently sandstorms cant attack and the player can protect his land by just placing units on the improved tiles.

This is a bug. I did not expect the sandstorm unit to stop attacking; I thought it still did. I will try a new method for this which will allow the sandstorm to move over unit stacks (and cities) and damage them without necessarily destroying them.

If you are interested to edit python files, you can decrease sandstorms or remove them altogether to make your games more enjoyable. Please edit file assets/python/dunewars.py and find the lines:

# Compute the number of storms to be added
iStormWant = (xmax * ymax / 400) - iStormCount

Without changing the leading tabs in the file, change 400 to a larger number and the number of storms will decrease. To have half as many storms, change it to 800, etc. To remove them altogether change the line to: iStormWant = 0.