incremental patch discussion

davidlallen · Dec 6, 2009

For those interested in technical discussions about the AI, please see this thread in the BBAI forum. I am trying to learn about how to rewrite the colony site selector, how to make "whip" work for DW, and how to make Fremen sandriders attack on water.

keldath · Dec 8, 2009

hey guys,

i wanna offer a nice mod comp that i really like,

culture based city radius by mylon (and arri),

it enables a city to grow up to a 4 tile radius each direction, you can set each size through the cultural levels , for exmple you can make influencial level get you city to size 3, and the next to size 4.
and also - you can set the first culture level to 1 size.

this greatly affect balance and game play, but, it gives some extra meaning to culture.

for your consideration guys.

a road system for dune:
well i thought of a nice addition to dune that can add the use of some roads -
how about - you can build a wonder/national building, that once built - it connects the closest cities with roads so youll have a road connection - it wont place roads all over the surronding tiles of the city where it built, but it will connect raod in a straight line to neighboring city. maybe this can be unique to a small number of civs.

again, just a thought.

davidlallen · Dec 8, 2009

keldath said:
culture based city radius by mylon (and arri),

I don't think of Dune as a planet with huge, sprawling suburbs. I'm not sure this fits well into the theme.

a road system for dune:

Within cultural borders, all units have double move, and resources are automatically connected. What is the benefit of roads?

Ahriman · Dec 8, 2009

culture based city radius by mylon (and arri),

I would worry that this would massively advantage the human player relative to the AI. The AI is already very bad at city placement and clusters its cities too close together. So a system that allowed cities to work extra tiles would be of huge value to the human player, but limited value to the AI.
The AI just couldn't plan for it well.

And we have already found it very difficult to improve the AI's city placement.

a road system for dune:

An interestnig idea, but I wonder if we really need it, with the home ground +1 movement.
The problem I can see is; you could get some weird patterns of road networks.
How precisely would it work?
If it connects only to the closest city, then a pair of cities will only connect to each other.
Could it connect to the closest city that was unconnected? This could also be strange; imagine cities ABC in a rough line, suppose B builds it first and connects to C, then C builds it and connects to A?
How would it calculate closeness across island barriers? Closest on same continent?
Multiple closest cities? A max distance apart that cities can be? How would you stop the AI from building it where it was useless (eg no other cities on the island)?
How many were you imaginging would be built? Just one? Would it connect only that city, or other cities too?
Lots of tricky design issues.

maybe this can be unique to a small number of civs.

Which civs would you have in mind?

Fremen would seem to be the only obvious ones to not have it.

keldath · Dec 8, 2009

hey guys,
well just figured id mention these ideas,

i figured yould say that,

3-4 city will need a lot of balance work, so no benefit here,
and roads, well, i mentioned it since i thought it will be a nice code, not for dune specifically.

thanks for the reply,

by the way, i think like you on this matter, i added it to my ol2 mod, so i thought it would hurt to see what you guys think on these mods.

davidlallen · Dec 10, 2009

OK, here is 1.7 beta 1. The purpose of this beta is mostly to test the installer. I have not merged deliverator's wonder patch. To install and test:

1. Rename your existing <BTS>\Mods\Dune Wars directory to something else you will remember.

2. Download and execute this installer executable (94 MB)

3. Launch the mod. If you are using vista or windows 7, please *do not* use "launch as adminstrator". That workaround should no longer be needed.

4. Does it come up for you? Great, that is one big confirmation.

5. Look in My Documents\My Games\Beyond The Sword. Do you see a new directory Dune Wars\UserSettings, with a bunch of ini files in it? Great.

6. Look in <BTS>\Mods\Dune Wars, which you just created. Does it contain a bunch of ini files, or a directory UserSettings with a bunch of ini files? That is bad, please let me know.

7. Start a new game. Does it work? Great, that is another big confirmation.

If you want to go on from there and try things, it would be helpful to choose an assortment of unusual mapscript options, and make sure you do not get any crashes or hangs.

To uninstall:

1. Delete <BTS>\Mods\Dune Wars

2. Rename your previous install directory to Dune Wars

In the spoiler is a change list.

Spoiler :

Hopefully, in the next couple of days, one or two people will confirm that this installer works. Also hopefully in the next couple of days, deliverator will release an updated wonders patch. Then this weekend, I will merge the updated wonders patch, make any changes from beta feedback, and release 1.7. I probably will not add any more features from this point, to avoid the embarrassing failure I encountered by adding "just one more change" immediately before releasing 1.6. I had to make an emergency 1.6.1 release, which caused some confusion.

I have also attached the updated issue list. There are almost 100 issues and suggestions outstanding. As usual, if I have missed any suggestions among all the posts, please let me know.

Ahriman · Dec 10, 2009

Ok, I will try to find some time to test this tonight.
I run 64 bit Vista and have never had any trouble running the mod - perhaps my account has Administrator priviliges already.

Overall looks very good, nice work. There are a few specific changes where clearly you and I have a disgreement; perhaps we could get some feedback from others on these?

These include:

Renamed Ixian unique resource from Thinking Machines to Ixian Weaponry

I still suggest "Ixian Technologies", since they still (are supposed to - I haven't tested yet) give a small synergy bonus with the Technocracy religion buildings. It makes sense for "Ixian Technologies" to boost the hammer output from an automated factory (Ixians are better at building robots), but it doesnt' really make sense for "Ixian weapons" to boost the hammer output from buildings.

+ Adaptive: +50% to all experience. Requires Ixian.

Lets get some feedback from others on whether or not they think this promotion is worth taking, and whether they think it makes logical sense on a worker.
[*edit* worker shoudl be Walker.]

* The Atreides civilization can no longer build infiltrators. However, the Atreides Palace generates 1.5x more espionage per turn, and the new Duke's Bench UB generates 2x more espionage than the base Tribunal. This represents Atreides honesty and loyalty.

I worry that these changes might not be quite enough. "2x espionage" on the tribunal just means 4 rather than 2, right? Anyway, its probably fine for now, just something to keep an eye on when testing.

Added two units for Atreides

I feel strongly that 2 units at 4 copies each are really not enough to convey the theme of a small hand-picked elite force. This is a very weak bonus.
My proposal is to have 4 of these, at master guardsmen, heavy trooper, lasgun trooper and lasgun soldier.

* Fremen can now capture any unit in the vehicle unitcombat such as quads or scorpions, but cannot build any. This is similar to capturing a slave, but only for the vehicle unitcombat, and the new unit is the same unitclass as the defeated unit.

Can you also make it possible to capture thopters?
This is the original goal we were really going for here; how a bunch of Fremen capture a Sardaukar thopter (and crash it into their dropship).
What % capture chance did you set the capture to? It should be pretty low IMO - 20% maybe? Its mostly there for flavor.

Added Fremen Raider unit as replacement of Roller, strength 12, move 2

If this is a *direct* replacement of the roller at the same tech, we have a problem; roller is strength 11, this guy is *higher*.
The ideea was to actually make the Fremen vehicle-replacement infantry different; they should be moderate strength, but high withdraw chance, so you use them as skirmishers to soften up the enemy before sending in the main soldiers.

Re-enabled "whip" (hurry population) for the slavery civic. Previously the AI whipped way too much, driving its population into the ground. With BBAI 0.82 this is less, and I have removed one reason to use it ("bad tiles"). Now the difference in total pop is very small for the AI.

ok, you have tested this? Cool. Can you explain very briefly what you mean by bad tiles (or link to the thread). Thanks.

Added promotions Ginaz Training I,II: each adds +20% strength and +20% experience to melee units. Requires access to Ginaz Training offworld resource.

What are the requirements for these?
Ginza training I should probably require combat 2 or drill 2 or city raider 2, ginaz training 2 should require ginaz training 1 and combat 3 or drill 3 or city raider 3.

I thought we wanted to make it so that only highly trainined units could get Ginaz training. If *every* melee unit just gets superior promotions, and the entire army gets superior training, then its potentially overpowered and out of flavor (ginaz training is only for the elites, not the grunts).
Are we cutting the swordmaster unit?

* New AI personality values for leaders Goya, Rhombur, Prad added in 1.6.5 (by Ahriman)

Cool. Did you also redo the existing parameters from my updated Excel sheet?
As I mentioned, many of the existing parameters were wrong, because I had misinterpreted the direction on some war parameters (high value meant low aggressiveness, not high aggressiveness).

Player anarchy and convert city spy actions now cost 5x more

I suspect 5x as much will not be enough for convert city, but we can test.

* KH Precursor used to give +25% combat strength, now it only gives +10%

I had thought we'd agreed 15%? just 10% seems pretty lame.

* Windtrap used to grant 2 commerce, now grants 0

I personally worry that this will be too much. I would definitely like to see +1 commerece to windtraps from sand farms tech.

* Spice feature used to cost 2 movement points, now only costs 1

If you're doing this, maybe the base build cost of the harvester improvemnt should go up by 1. We don't want it to make it too easy to build all your harvesters with just a single worker or two.
I don't feel strongly though.

Otherwise, great work David.

Ahriman · Dec 10, 2009

To add some things to the list that we have discussed before.:
Make the Spice Refinery a gold yield booster that has a trader slot. This makes more logical sense, adds a gold booster in the early game (it is a *long* time currently to get a gold booster) and helps with getting the right great person to make the Landsraad religion shrine.

Create a new forge replacement building, maybe at crystal materials tech, that is the same as the current spice refinery. Possible names: Mill, Foundry, Manufactory, Workshop.
Or put it at stillsuits and make it a Stillsuit Factory.

I'd also like to add a forest feature to the list, as something that spawns only on grassland, and only in sinks, and only on tiles that don't have an oasis/lake. It give +1 hammer and no other bonus. It could use the FFH new forest as a placeholder.

davidlallen · Dec 10, 2009

I agree with your idea to get feedback from more people, and also to get feedback from actual playtest. There are a couple of points I want to clarify.

I still suggest "Ixian Technologies", since they still (are supposed to - I haven't tested yet) give a small synergy bonus with the Technocracy religion buildings.

Let's see what happens with no synergy. Apart from Tleilaxu, there are no religions which have such tight synergies with a single civ.

Lets get some feedback from others on whether or not they think this promotion [Adaptive] is worth taking, and whether they think it makes logical sense on a worker.

Workers cannot get any promotions because they have unitcombat=NONE.

Can you also make it possible to capture thopters?

I want to work up to this gradually. In this release, we have removed the vehicle unitcombat from Fremen, and added capture of the vehicle unitcombat. As we have shown, the AI will not use Fremen melee units to attack on desert. So they have to still build thopters, suspensors and carryalls. If we can solve that then we can go to the next stage, and evaluate having fremen unable to build, and able to capture thopters, suspensors, and carryalls.

ok, you have tested this [whip]? Cool. Can you explain very briefly what you mean by bad tiles (or link to the thread)

My analysis is at this post in the BBAI forum.

I thought we wanted to make it so that only highly trainined units could get Ginaz training. If *every* melee unit just gets superior promotions, and the entire army gets superior training, then its potentially overpowered and out of flavor (ginaz training is only for the elites, not the grunts).

There is no prereq. I could add Combat II as a prereq. Let's see if it is overpowered in play.

Did you also redo the existing parameters from my updated Excel sheet?

Yes, I took version 3 after your two later edits.

Ahriman · Dec 10, 2009

Apart from Tleilaxu, there are no religions which have such tight synergies with a single civ.

I would say:
a) Imperium as a synergy with Corrino (at least it was supposed to), +1 happy from Sardaukar cooperation
b) Landsraad is intended to have synergy with Ecaz (bonuses from trade goods)
c) The synergy bonus Technocracy/Ix makes a lot of sense fluff-wise, and the bonus was relatively minor.
d) Mahdi has some synergy with Fremen, since Zealots get sandrider.
e) Shai-hulad IIRC has a minor synergy with Fremen, from Fremen water debt.
f) Many religions have anti-synergies, since they cannot be adopted or founded by some civs.

Workers cannot get any promotions because they have unitcombat=NONE.

sorry, that was a typo: worker -> walker.

My analysis is at this post in the BBAI forum.

Thanks.

if (AI_countGoodTiles((healthRate(0) == 0), false, 100) <= (getPopulation() - iHurryPopulation))

So it sounds like the simplest solution is just to lower the 100 value down to something much lower, and to try to get it to register specialist slots somehow.

There is no prereq. I could add Combat II as a prereq. Let's see if it is overpowered in play.

Ok. I think it will be. You are adding effectively adding a large bonus to every melee unit produced, for free, from quite early in the game.

Yes, I took version 3 after your two later edits.

And redid all the parameters for all the leaders, not just the new ones?
Great, thanks.

*edit*
Also, can we add the "spice silo" building to the list? Requries arrakis spice civic and spice industry tech, and gives +0.15 (or +0.2) gold per spice resource? Hammer cost maybe~40?

davidlallen · Dec 10, 2009

Ahriman said:
sorry, that was a typo: worker -> walker.

The current concept of the walker units is that they are not cybernetic, they are piloted tanks with legs. So if it makes sense for a tank, it makes sense for a walker.

You are adding effectively adding a large bonus to every melee unit produced, for free, from quite early in the game.

It is neither early nor free. It requires offworld trade and a landing stage, and it is a promotion you would take instead of another promotion. The original feedback was that the Ginaz Training contract was too weak since it only gives access to a swordmaster unit.

Ahriman · Dec 10, 2009

The current concept of the walker units is that they are not cybernetic, they are piloted tanks with legs. So if it makes sense for a tank, it makes sense for a walker.

Agreed, my feelnig is that it doesn't make sense for any units. I didn't intend to mean walker vs other unit. My question is whether an "Adaptive" promotion that means Ixian vehicles/walkers can gain experience faster makes sense.
My conception of Ix is that they have innovative scientists and engineers, not scientific soldiers.
Ixian society is highly stratified from what we see in the prequels; I don't think their engineers would be pilotnig their vehicles.

It is neither early nor free. It requires offworld trade and a landing stage, and it is a promotion you would take instead of another promotion.

Offworld trade is late early game, or early-midgame. Its pretty early as far as the overall game goes. All of these things are relative.

Its free in that it doesn't cost you hammers or anything; all your melee units can now select a superior promotion that makes them stronger. Build a new melee unit, normally you can only get +10% from combat 1, now you can get +20% from ginaz 1 and +20% experience gain.

I'm inmagining Feyd with Aggressive/Charismatic and Ginaz training.
Produce a melee unit in a city with a barracks gives +3 xp.
You select Ginaz 1. You now have 30% bonus over base strength.
With 1 more xp you get Ginaz 2, you now haev 50% bonus over base strength. And you're earning +40% Xp.
So earning 3 more normal Xp (increased by 40%, lower thresholds from charismatic)) will put you to level 3, where you could get city raider 1.
So now your units are +70% strength when attacking cities.
Thats very powerful.

So you're boosting all your melee units by significant amounts, at the cost of giving up ~1 happiness or 1 health luxury.

Another thought: should Fremen only get 1 Landing stage? Since they get Water Debt free, and they're not exactly big on offworld trade?

Or Fremen could have a landing stage replacement that gives a foreign trade bonus (exporting spice) but no resource contracts.

The original feedback was that the Ginaz Training contract was too weak since it only gives access to a swordmaster unit.

Yes, but when we talked about maknig it a promotion I thought we had some consensus about it having a promotion pre-requisite, so it wasn't going on green grunts.
We can playtest though and see how it feels.

davidlallen · Dec 10, 2009

Ahriman said:
Yes, but when we talked about maknig it a promotion I thought we had some consensus about it having a promotion pre-requisite, so it wasn't going on green grunts.

How about Combat II as a prereq. But, I will grant it to Swordmaster as a free promotion.

Ahriman · Dec 10, 2009

How about Combat II as a prereq

Sounds fine, but I'd probably make it "combat 2 OR city raider 2", so city assault specialists can still get the training once they're level 4.

But, I will grant it to Swordmaster as a free promotion.

Then maybe we should remove some of its other bonuses; tone the bonus vs melee down to 10%.

So its strength 12, starts with Ginaz training 1, +10% vs melee units, 1 move, national limit ~5?.
Otherwise this guy is probably too strong.

Ahriman · Dec 10, 2009

davidlallen said:
OK, here is 1.7 beta 1. The purpose of this beta is mostly to test the installer. I have not merged deliverator's wonder patch. To install and test:

1. Rename your existing <BTS>\Mods\Dune Wars directory to something else you will remember.

2. Download and execute this installer executable (94 MB)

3. Launch the mod. If you are using vista or windows 7, please *do not* use "launch as adminstrator". That workaround should no longer be needed.

4. Does it come up for you? Great, that is one big confirmation.

5. Look in My Documents\My Games\Beyond The Sword. Do you see a new directory Dune Wars\UserSettings, with a bunch of ini files in it? Great.

6. Look in <BTS>\Mods\Dune Wars, which you just created. Does it contain a bunch of ini files, or a directory UserSettings with a bunch of ini files? That is bad, please let me know.

7. Start a new game. Does it work? Great, that is another big confirmation.

Did 1 through 7.
Confirm presence of My Games\Beyond the Sword\Dune Wars\User Settings with a bunch of ini files.
Mod launches fine.
Creating a new game, customize settings, say Launch -> CTD.
Try it again with different settings, game loads fine.
Try it again with original settings, game loads fine.

CTD not reproducible. Other than that, things look fine.

davidlallen · Dec 10, 2009

Ahriman said:
Creating a new game, customize settings, say Launch -> CTD.

Hm. Slvynn had reported a CTD when one of the starting units is placed on top of a goody hut. I am not sure how he detected that a CTD was due to this. Have you seen any CTD on launch using 1.6.5? There is no change in the starting unit placement between 1.6.5 and 1.7.

Ahriman · Dec 10, 2009

Have you seen any CTD on launch using 1.6.5?

Not that I recall... but I think in general any CTD I couldn't reproduce I tended to ignore.

A weird thing; every time I build an improvement, the AI wakes my worker one turn before it finishes, and I have to re-issue the order.

Is this from BBAI changes somehow? Its irritating. Pointless extra micromanagement.

davidlallen · Dec 10, 2009

Ahriman said:
A weird thing; every time I build an improvement, the AI wakes my worker one turn before it finishes, and I have to re-issue the order.

I agree that is annoying, especially if you have stacked several orders. I assume there is no enemy unit in sight which could be causing a threat; is it possible there is a nearby unit out of sight which is waking it up?

I am sure that other users of straight BBAI would have complained about this on the BBAI forum, and I have not seen any similar complaint. Sadly, if it happens all the time, that means something has gone wrong during the BBAI + DW + RevDCM merge, which may be hard to unscramble.

Ahriman · Dec 10, 2009

is it possible there is a nearby unit out of sight which is waking it up?

No. It happens 100% of the time, every improvement.

Some more things to add to the master list:

1. Change House spice firms into a national wonder with +3 gold per spice resource, remove the corporations.
2. After many games now, polar cities are underpowered; they may be large, but their hammer output is just too small for them to be able to produce anything. THey are supposed to be super-cities, but they end up being pretty weak, and the AI just gets weakened by its rush for the pole, since the polar city can't build anything.
Best fix is probably to make ice extractor improvements provide fresh water like wells do, for the hammer boost on cottages.

* * *
Also: the UI update that has the value of % changes actually displayed is awesome.

keldath · Dec 11, 2009

david, im sure that the merge is fine, we both tested it a lot.

maybe you can release 1.7 not as an installer, and direct users to delete their old dune install.

also, you can go back and release the 1.6.5.2 i gave you to allow the guys to test it,
im positive 1.6.5.2 works well and has no problems, you and me did and im still doing tests.

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