Ind + Phi ?

[FrenziedEye]

Hi everyone,

I was looking through all the leader traits (incl. warlords) and I realised that there is no leader with the Industrious and Philisophical trait.

Wouldn't that be a powerful combination? (I hope one leader comes out as that in Beyond The Sword)

I was just wondering if anyone thinks the same.

=]

 

[scooter]

Hi everyone,

I was looking through all the leader traits (incl. warlords) and I realised that there is no leader with the Industrious and Philisophical trait.

Wouldn't that be a powerful combination?
...

Yeah it sure would, that's why you can't have that combo. There's actually quite a few "forbidden" trait combos in Warlords (there's a thread with a full list of them somewhere, search for it).

 

[FrenziedEye]

Yeah it sure would, that's why you can't have that combo. There's actually quite a few "forbidden" trait combos in Warlords (there's a thread with a full list of them somewhere, search for it).

Okay I haven't yet seen that thread of forbidden combos (would someone be so kind as to post it? =]; couldn't find it! ), but having said this, wouldn't this be unfair of Firaxis to NOT include a leader trait that a leader so rightfully deserves.

Like say that in reality some Leader X in the world DID have the two leader traits as philisophical and industrious as their most outstanding traits compared to other world leaders, it would not justify that leader's existence if those traits weren't included in Civ 4.

To maintain the historical integrity of the game as best as possible (I know sometimes it's not perfect), wouldn't it be better if these traits occurred, no matter how 'forbidden' they are? Of course, game balance would be another issue.

Okay anyone feel free to discuss...

 

[Cam_H]

Isn't it bad enough that they've got leader(s) (Gandhi -> Ramesses) with 'Ind+Spi' trait?

'Ind+Phi' + Marble ... let's see, add The Parthenon + The Globe Theatre + National Epic + Sistine ... you wouldn't need to get out of bed to win a Cultural Victory.

 

[oyzar]

cultural victory is only realy doable in single player and it isnt why it is too powerfull..

 

[scooter]

Okay I haven't yet seen that thread of forbidden combos (would someone be so kind as to post it? =]; couldn't find it! ), but having said this, wouldn't this be unfair of Firaxis to NOT include a leader trait that a leader so rightfully deserves.

Like say that in reality some Leader X in the world DID have the two leader traits as philisophical and industrious as their most outstanding traits compared to other world leaders, it would not justify that leader's existence if those traits weren't included in Civ 4.

To maintain the historical integrity of the game as best as possible (I know sometimes it's not perfect), wouldn't it be better if these traits occurred, no matter how 'forbidden' they are? Of course, game balance would be another issue.

Okay anyone feel free to discuss...

First the easy part, here's the thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=193672

There's actually 19 combinations that you can't get in Warlords (there was only like 3 in Vanilla), including 6 combos that they took out of the game, such as finan/organized (obvious), finan/creative (my most-missed combo, but a somewhat obvious one), Agg/Organized (pretty obvious), as well as three I don't quite understand (financ/expansive, expansive/creative, and creative/philosophical). If anyone has an explanation for this one I'd be happy to see it.

As for your other questions, personally I'd prefer (and I believe most people would too) that the game be more balanced at the expense of a slight historical inaccuracy (very slight IMHO).

 

[oyzar]

philo/crea is pretty obvious cause of the cheap libraries.

 

[scooter]

philo/crea is pretty obvious cause of the cheap libraries.

yeah I didn't think about that. As for the Phi/Ind comment you mentioned earlier, another thing that's kinda big is an Industrious gets lots of wonders, which provide great people points, which are magnified further by the philosophical trait. There was a good write-up about it somewhere by one of the beta-testers for the original Civ4 release about the things they ran into with this combo, I wish I knew where it was...

 

[Charou]

To maintain the historical integrity of the game as best as possible (I know sometimes it's not perfect), wouldn't it be better if these traits occurred, no matter how 'forbidden' they are? Of course, game balance would be another issue.

Civ is not a simulation, it´s a game.
You said it. Historical accuracy comes after having the game well balanced.
Up to you to come up with a modified XML file, giving you this insane leader traits combo.

There's actually 19 combinations that you can't get in Warlords (there was only like 3 in Vanilla), including 6 combos that they took out of the game, such as finan/organized (obvious), finan/creative (my most-missed combo, but a somewhat obvious one), Agg/Organized (pretty obvious), as well as three I don't quite understand (financ/expansive, expansive/creative, and creative/philosophical). If anyone has an explanation for this one I'd be happy to see it.

IMO, financ/expansive is forbidden because Pottery would become too great a take,
and early cottage spamming would be too easy to achieve (cheap workers).
creative/philosophical beacause of cheap libraries
I don´t know about expansive/creative, maybe only because they wanted to give Cyrus a new style of play, and they didnt find someone suiting this combo.

 

[scooter]

IMO, financ/expansive is forbidden because Pottery would become too great a take,
and early cottage spamming would be too easy to achieve (cheap workers).
creative/philosophical beacause of cheap libraries
I don´t know about expansive/creative, maybe only because they wanted to give Cyrus a new style of play, and they didnt find someone suiting this combo.

Ah thanks for that, duh, didn't think about those. As for Expansive/Creative, the only thing I can think of is expansive gets the health bonus, and creative gets quick coliseums, a source of happiness. Either that or like you said they wanted to give Cyrus another playstyle, that and they didn't have a charismatic/imperialistic combo, so that gave them one, and they just never bothered replacing the exp/cre combo... who knows...

 

[LAnkou]

well, the only forbidden combo i acknowledge are IND/PHI (GP combo) and FIN/ORG (Gold whore)...

For the fone that have been shifted, i think people shouldn't watch what have been taken, but what combination have been given...

cre/fin: cathy get imp. and imp fits cathy better than fin
finan/org: washington got cha/exp (plus forbidden combo). OK pour cha, but exp?
Agg/org: Tokugawa got protective, and that fis him better than organised
fin/exp: Victoria got imperialistic, again that fits her better
exp/cre: Cyrus got Cha/Imp, which is good for him
cre/phi: Fred got Org instead cre, i can understand that

 

[Thedrin]

I think the term 'forbidden' is being badly applied. Just because a trait combination was taken out of the game doesn't mean that it's too powerful - it may simply mean that adding the three new traits allowed the designers to have more flexibility to assign trait combinations than they originally had.

I do agree that the following trait combinations may well be overpowered:
financial/organised
industrious/philosophical
creative/philosophical
charismatic/aggressive

but, given the inclusion of charismatic/organised, I see no reason to assume that aggressive/organised is too powerful.

 

[Ecofarm]

I think the traits are vague enough to satisfy history like a horoscope satisfies prediction. "Her industrialism was kind of creativity because many new things were built"... Any great leader is likely to have displayed all of the traits.

I saw a history of the mongols on cable the other day. It seems Karadorum should be a specialist city, multi-religious, and a diplomatic powerhouse via trade and human rights (torture and raiding outlawed, etc). Conquer China, "found Bejing", then kill 6 million Persians.

 

[FrenziedEye]

Okay i kind of get it now. Thanks for all replies..

So since there are 11 traits now (Cha/Imp/Pro,,,, Agg, Cre, Exp, Fin, Ind, Org, Phi, Spi) and assuming no more traits added in BTS this means like..

For each leader there are two slots for traits __ __ so that means... 11traits Choose 2slots (11C2) combinations of traits = 55 different types (I don't think ordering matters because if you have for example in Monty's case Agg/Spi or Spi/Agg it's the same thing so not 110 possibilities)

Umm... Vanilla had 26 leaders, Warlords had 10 leaders, Beyond The Sword is going to have 16 leaders

26 + 10 + 16 = 52 leaders

55 trait combos -52 leaders = 3 unused traits assuming no repetition... (I can't remember but have any two leaders had the same trait or pair of traits?....certainly none had a double repeater like Agg/Agg...I don't think any two leaders share same traits....unless this happens in BTS)

So that means there's room for 3 "forbidden/overpowering" traits... or in other words 3 "banned" traits?

Btw. If i made a maths error could someone point out please? =]

 

[InFlux5]

Cheap librairies for Creative civs didn't come until a patch which was release after Warlords. So that can't be a reason for any of the missing combos.

In fact, there's no way to know whether a combo was left out for balance reasons, or simply because there are more leaders than combinations.

There are a few that are obviously overpowered, but I think a lot just didn't happen to make it in.

 

[Bhruic]

Umm... Vanilla had 26 leaders, Warlords had 10 leaders, Beyond The Sword is going to have 16 leaders

26 + 10 + 16 = 52 leaders

55 trait combos -52 leaders = 3 unused traits assuming no repetition

That's assuming that BTS doesn't add new traits - which is a bad assumption to make at this point.

Bh

 

[FrenziedEye]

That's assuming that BTS doesn't add new traits - which is a bad assumption to make at this point.

Bh

Yeah i guess it is a bad assumption.

If they did add more traits then it'd enhance the 'uniqueness' of each leader and prevent/lessen the chance of any more of those ridiculous combinations that some of you guys pointed out earlier. ( + that thread)

I think that would have a positive effect; it would bring about more strategic planning in terms of which leader Civ4 players have to choose before they start the game. But at this stage it's hard to say..not much news about that topic..

 

[kniteowl]

The 3 obvious Taboo Combination are quite obviously, Agg/Cha (Ultimate Warmonger) Fin/Org (Ultimate Tech/Gold Whore) and Phil/Ind... (no need to explain)

I don't think any new traits will be added, 52 leaders is enough... it's a coinsodence that it's similar to the number of cards in a deck lol

Cre/Phil isn't overpowered or game breaking, getting that early GS... in my opinion won't give an advantage so big that it's impossible for anyone else to prevent you from winning.

 

[Charou]

Something else has to be taken into account. in judging what combo are forbidden
or overpowered. Interaction with Unique Stuff and maybe also with starting techs.
Some Leaders, with their UU and the introduction of the UB in Warlords,
had to give up some of their traits, because they´d create too great a synergy.
For instance, one of the reasons why Saladin could not be Phi anymore is because of the mandrassa. Too many prophets and Great scientists would be unfair.
For the same reason, Phi could not be given to Ramses or Hatsi
Charismatic could not be given to the mongols because of the Ger.
Industrious and fast workers made Ghandi a frenzy early wonder builder, he became Phi.

Other examples, but the other way round.
Redcoats had to be nerved down, because of Protective Churchill.

Nonetheless, with the germans, Organised and UB assembly plant give great synergy and was not forbidden. that is late in the game, and hopefully will help aelf nail his EMC. Also Zulus = agressive and thus very cheap UB. very strong but allowed.
Lot of examples of traits and UB or UU interacting but some were too strong.

 

[scy12]

I would rather have another Augustus , Ind + phi Leader than another Saladin (Protective - Spiritual) . As long as the game offers the ability of choice ,having a broken trait - synergy Leader will be just another way to play the game and have fun. If they can add only balanced leaders i am fine with that too.