Indefinite preNES: Fantasy

[Angst]

Introductionary

This thread will be a preFantasy NES. For worldbuilding, creating a lovely fantasy world. Note though, that I have not much initiative to actually make this an actual game at any point. I need outside output to make a fantasy world; a community project, perhaps. I didn't know exactly where to post this thread, so I did it where I felt most at home. (Other being the DYOS threads, but they are kinda destined for DYOS drawing. ) This thread will have two initial posts before you can help me, the first post being boring informative stuff like this, the second being where I actually write the stuff about this world. No, we have never done this before.

Creating a setting

This project will act as a preNES to a "generic" fantasy world; therefore act as if it was to generate a good setting for an actual NES. All worldbuilding will be subject to change; if I accept some sort of story or idea, I can later archive it away because of any reason. That doesn't mean I won't attempt to include it regardless. I'd really want everyone to participate.

How to join in

Submit ideas, stories, thoughts, anything. In this thread. Then I'll read it.

Basic considerations about our world

I think that we should stick to something dark; that is, serious fantasy. Not Blizzard's Warcraft world, but rather Tolkien's epic dark folklore. I don't know how steampunk are to be treated; and if we go in that direction, if Magic's Mirrodin world is decent for a "serious" fantasy setting. But all that is to be decided. I do expect more races than the human one to be present in the world, and I do expect to include magic.

The three concepts of this world to be done

• Fantastic physics - How does magic work? Are wizards plentiful or not? What is mana? Are there other dimensions? Does armor work realistically, or can wood defeat other stuff? What do gods have to do with the world? Are races different aspects of humans in their extremes as they usually are? Basic ideas of how the world function.
• Lore - How was the world created? (AND YES WE WILL USE CREATIONISM ) What happened then? Are any epic wars? How many eras have passed? How did each era end? What races rose and died? How was the world shaped from the beginning to the end?
• Setting - How is the world today? How does it look like? What conflicts are present? What conflicts have settled? What does the map look like? What ancient treasures are hidden in the soil?

Look in the next post for our first considerations to do.

 

[Angst]

First decision - What is the world's setting today?

We could go with a basic make-a-map-and-then-dot-the-races-into-it approach. But that's only one possibility. As such, I am going to post the following universal world designs:

A) A globe, like Earth, only with magical creatures on it.

B) A multidimensional realm, like the planeswalking element of Magic represents; different dimensions with different worlds. A good tool for variation.

C) An universal skyworld, with void in between realms - a physical ocean, if you might - like represented in Daftpanzer's Fantasy Empires earlier, or in the MMORPG Allods Online. Space ships/Sky ships travel between isles scattered through the Void, that are worlds in themselves. My secondary favorite.

D) A world divided in floors; as seen in Torin's Passage, or the spheres of Phyrexia, or the four worlds of Civilization II: Test of Time. I really like this approach since, even though I offered a lot of examples, I've seen this variety rarely used, and even if it was, it intrigues me. Worlds so huge on top of each other that there only appears to be sky above; then the underground world below; and another world below... Until something along our understanding of Hell, perhaps. And great stairs or magical doors that allow one to travel between the world's layers. This is what I like the most.

What do people think about this?

YOU MAY POST.

 

[Lord of Elves]

I definitely vote for A.

 

[Angst]

Can you flesh out reasons?

No problem, but I want to consider myself beyond what people want; I want to know why one world only is better than multiple worlds.

 

[Ninja Dude]

I'd go with B, because of the sheer variety there could be. There is potential for different gods or creation backgrounds for each, or perhaps one god made them all, and each plane interprets that god differently. Or perhaps a strange hybrid of the two.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Can you flesh out reasons?

No problem, but I want to consider myself beyond what people want; I want to know why one world only is better than multiple worlds.

Firstly, it would be easier to manage, at least in my light experience as a moderator. Secondly, how would one handle "crossing between", worlds in one's orders? I assume we're talking about some sort of planar "alternate reality", as opposed to another planet.

 

[Angst]

Great to see you in too, Ninja Dude.

Well, it really means "Other Worlds"; any of B, C or D would fit. I realized that both Heroes III and Civ 2 ToT used layers of worlds for example; and not that difficult to manage. From a PC game perspective. Crossing between, I have to think of examples.

 

[Lord of Elves]

As for what Ninja said regarding deities, I have the framework of a proposed back-story for a path-A world, involving several races, a nice plethora of deities, and a "basic conflict".

 

[Angst]

Sounds good; I have to add that when creating this world, I'd probably want several eras. Each era ending with the end of the world.

 

[Luckymoose]

I say A but I'll fill it out later. Also happy birthday?

 

[merciary]

I rather like C, I often keep myself entertained at work/school with mini-fantasy daydream-ish things and many have been of this nature. Also reminds me of Skies of Arcadia. Plus I enjoy the wide variety it would offer.

Edit: Well now that I've looked at other post more carefully, if you want to different eras that each end with some apocalyptic disaster I see no reason we can do more than one of these choices, say start with A and then something shattered the world and we end up with C.
Or again A (or possibly C) and then through some nasty magical event B (or maybe D) is relieved.
Another possibility could be that we start with one of the "multiverse" ideas and then somehow they get sealed from each other and we get A or maybe a Discworld-ish thing depending the original forms

 

[bombshoo]

For the world, practicality and the ability for the map to be edited and understood by the mod as well as the players must be considered if this is ever to be played. A globe is definitely easiest for this but also definitely the most boring. I have had two ideas I've been brainstorming with for a while now in case I ever decided to do a fantasy NES that keep things fairly simple but also give a new take on standard fantasy.

1. Perhaps, looking to Legend of Zelda, two mirror realms could exist? A Light Realm and then maybe a mirror Dark Realm that can be accessed through use of certain portals or the use of certain objects/spells.

Two maps might be necessary for this but it isn't overly complicated and since both maps will look fairly similar, it requires less work.

Why I think this idea could provide something "new" from game aspect is because it could require players to take"balance" between the two realms into account. For every action that takes place in one realm an equal action must take place in the other to maintain this sort of "balance". This could bring in an interesting dynamic of people being forced to take their actions into consideration as well as give them a way to indirectly affect the events of the other realm. An example of what I'm thinking here is an avalanche in one realm might cause a volcanic eruption in the other or perhaps if a character dies they are transported to the other realm and are still active there.

2. My second idea is a sort of fantasy colonization and discovery scenario.

An old and (seemingly) very heavenly realm has long been forgotten but recently it has been rediscovered by the people who abandoned it long ago in favor of another continent/dimension/realm. The forgotten realm is full of ancient secrets and magic that can be used and harnessed as they are understood by the players while the old realm is still full of infighting and war. The interesting points about this approach are that it can work very well as a story and it gives the players definite goals rather than having them just run around like headless chickens. The forgotten realm can be seen as a sort of mystery that the players must solve. Why does this realm exist? What secrets about their own history does it hold? What gives this realm its power? Why was it ever abandoned?

I'm not trying to push these on you or anything, but upon reading your posts above, I couldn't help but be reminded of these ideas I had a while back.

Fantastic physics - How does magic work? Are wizards plentiful or not? What is mana? Are there other dimensions? Does armor work realistically, or can wood defeat other stuff? What do gods have to do with the world? Are races different aspects of humans in their extremes as they usually are? Basic ideas of how the world function.

I think there is a need for some definite basic laws when considering magic. I would treat magic as a branch of science all on its own. Classical elements seem to be the basis of magic in many, if not most fantasies and while this is fine it has admittedly become a little overdone. The good points of using classical elements as a basis for magic is that all the work is pretty much done for you. Water beats fire, fire beats wood etc. It also allows for a pretty easy explanation on where the power of magic comes from. The negatives of this, as stated, are that it tends to be overdone and thus also means there is very little room for creativity when designing it. I am sure there is some other route you could take magic that hasn't been overdone such as based on emotions or genetic dispositions, but these don't seem to provide as much room for maneuverability.

Lore - How was the world created? (AND YES WE WILL USE CREATIONISM ) What happened then? Are any epic wars? How many eras have passed? How did each era end? What races rose and died? How was the world shaped from the beginning to the end?

I really like the idea of "balance" (or a lack thereof) in Creation. Two opposing forces pulling or pushing at each other and this somehow eventually resulting in existence. Why I tend to like this is because it strays away from the "One day the gods were bored and decided to make a planet for no real reason at all" story. I am sure there are other ways to avoid the latter but the "balance" issue was the one that came to mind first.

Setting - How is the world today? How does it look like? What conflicts are present? What conflicts have settled? What does the map look like? What ancient treasures are hidden in the soil?

See my above comments.

 

[Lord of Elves]

What I'm thinking along the lines of:

Creation of several races, humans, Elves, Dwarves, Orcs et cetera to populate our Tolkienesque fantasy world. Conflict of the gods, there have been disputes and direct fighting between the principle deities of this reality in the past, largely shaping the current world. At the end of the First Age, a pact was signed by said deities that they would not interfere in the realm of mortals, though every Age since the pact has been broken, resulting in a Ragnarok-type event of sorts where the gods fight against each other to restore some semblance of balance, usually destroying all conventional civilization in the process.

Game would begin immediately after this End of an Age event, so that players would have the option of designing their own societies only with the impediment of choosing a race. Either that or immediately before said event, possibly to give the players a chance at imposing their own order on the world?

Think of the deities as being Olympian in that they are far from perfect spiritual embodiments but have whims and desires that would not be all too different from the mortals they have created. They have their flaws, most certainly, and are not averse to fighting against each other. A tenuous balance is created by the pact, and the moment it is shattered all hell breaks loose with great detriment to mortal society. Magic would probably consist upon calling on the power of the gods, or a Force-inspired type of "part of the universe", that could be wielded by attuned individuals. Limitations on magic would probably go along the lines of the willpower necessary to make it bend to your will, or how "close", the gods are to the world. The latter would mean that magic would become a more powerful force during or immediately before a Ragnarok event, and would work for a "pre-End of an Age", game.

 

[Ninja Dude]

Combining bombshoo's idea with one of my own, I kinda came up with a basic creation format to use if we go with plan B for the world lay out:

Two generic all powerful, yet opposite gods constantly battle, scheme, plot against one another, somehow making creation. Finally, they end up completely obliterating one another, their essence scattering throughout the universe. These little blobs of godly goodness eventually reform into smaller, less powerful deities. They themselves clash and ally with one another, make various planes of existence for their own personal reasons, and bla bla bla

 

[bombshoo]

Thinking more about "magic" and trying to establish a "science" to it I've come up with a couple of more ideas (partially based of Ninja Dude's and Lord of the Elves's ideas above).

Perhaps "mana" is a sort of latent energy or invisible matter present around the world as a side effect of the creation of existence. It cannot be seen or touched but it can be harnessed in various ways. Think of mana as the petroleum of magic; it is what allows for spells to be done or for objects laced with it to function in seemingly impossible ways. Mana "particles" tend to attract to each other (and exponentially like similar atoms) leading to certain areas, objects or beings possessing more or less. When magic is used, some of the mana it contains is re-released into the environment forcing the user to "recharge" by waiting for more mana to accumulate back to them. Everything has a small bit of natural mana that is bound to it, holding it together that can not be released. The more mana used, the longer one would have to wait to recharge. This makes mana something like a renewable resource. Certain areas are mana rich, and in these spots mana would recharge faster and magic would have heightened effects.

To expand on Ninja Dude's ideas above, if the gods are sort of side effects of creation as well, perhaps they are pure mana or at the very least the beings with the highest concentration of mana. This could explain why they are so powerful and able to grant some of it out to other beings. In this scenario, I suppose mana is the smallest of the blobs resulting from creation while the gods are the largest clumps. I suppose this could imply that a large enough concentration of mana may gain consciousness which is somewhat interesting on its own....

 

[Lord of Elves]

Thinking more about "magic" and trying to establish a "science" to it I've come up with a couple of more ideas (partially based of Ninja Dude's idea above).

Perhaps "mana" is a sort of latent energy or invisible matter present around the world as a side effect of the creation of existence. It cannot be seen or touched but it can be harnessed in various ways. Think of mana as the petroleum of magic; it is what allows for spells to be done or for objects laced with it to function in seemingly impossible ways. Mana "particles" tend to attract to each other (and exponentially like similar atoms) leading to certain areas, objects or beings possessing more or less. When magic is used, some of the mana it contains is re-released into the environment forcing the user to "recharge" by waiting for more mana to accumulate back to them. Everything has a small bit of natural mana that is bound to it, holding it together that can not be released. The more mana used, the longer one would have to wait to recharge. This makes mana something like a renewable resource. Certain areas are mana rich, and in these spots mana would recharge faster and magic would have heightened effects.

To expand on Ninja Dude's ideas above, if the gods are sort of side effects of creation as well, perhaps they are pure mana or at the very least the beings with the highest concentration of mana. This could explain why they are so powerful and able to grant some of it out to other beings. In this scenario, I suppose mana is the smallest of the blobs resulting from creation while the gods are the largest clumps. I suppose this could imply that a large enough concentration of mana may gain consciousness which is somewhat interesting on its own....

No one comments on my ideas

I shall now proceed to wear dark clothing and wear my hair so that it blinds one eye, as is the modern way.

 

[bombshoo]

Magic would probably consist upon calling on the power of the gods, or a Force-inspired type of "part of the universe", that could be wielded by attuned individuals. Limitations on magic would probably go along the lines of the willpower necessary to make it bend to your will, or how "close", the gods are to the world. The latter would mean that magic would become a more powerful force during or immediately before a Ragnarok event, and would work for a "pre-End of an Age", game.

No one comments on my ideas

I shall now proceed to wear dark clothing and wear my hair so that it blinds one eye, as is the modern way.

Nope. Your ideas sucked.

Just kidding. Actually I read yours and since they were very similar to both my own and Ninja's I kind of got confused on who's were who's. I was actually trying to simply lay some concrete foundation that would be able to work with a variety of ideas to an extent. I must admit, my ideas are pretty "Force-inspired" as well.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Nope. Your ideas sucked.

Just kidding. Actually I read yours and since they were very similar to both my own and Ninja's I kind of got confused on who's were who's. I was actually trying to simply lay some concrete foundation that would be able to work with a variety of ideas to an extent. I must admit, my ideas are pretty "Force-inspired" as well.

Cool, cool. I've always thought of magic as being the manipulation of "the universe", (dark matter perhaps?) some sort of element of existence that isn't understandable through conventional science.

As far as the gods being made of mana, I was thinking along the lines of the gods being made of "thought", as the mind is the building block of magic. It appears to amount to the same thing.

Right now my biggest question is the races. Obviously there will be humans, Dwarves and Elves, but I would like to be able to include Orcs and such as well. Whether they have to be "evil", is up to debate.

What are everyones' thoughts on the Ragnarok style event I have proposed, and its origins?

 

[bombshoo]

To be honest, I find the idea of naturally "good" and naturally "evil" kind of lame even if it is often a key element in most high fantasy. What I find a better replacement is a natural conflict where one side can be represented by light and another by dark but more in tune with a Chess game. Maybe the gods play a sort of "game" with with various races.

As for the races, I know Lord_Jaokim wants a Tolkienesque fantasy but do we have to be bound to the standard everyday fantasy races? I feel like if we are working from the ground up it's a nice chance to branch out a bit. I am certainly fine using some of the standard ones, but why not give some of the less used ones a bit more than a glance for once? Giants? Merpeople? Plant People? Sky People?

 

[Angst]

Thanks for the happy birthday Luckymoose.

Notes so far

- First off, I don't want to rip off Tolkien. What races to use, for example, are not predefined by Tolkien's otherwise marvellous universe. Neither orcs or elves are necessary (!) until proven otherwise. (Elves, for example, tend to be an auto-include because fantasy worlds usually benefit from a high-cultured forest-dwelling race. It just feels proper.) I used Tolkien as an example because even though Warcraft has a somewhat serious backstory, its bestiary is very cartoony, even if drawn differently. I want to make it seem like a serious world.

- The history of existence will be seperated in different eras; starting with creation, and very possibly each era climaxing into an apocalypse.

- We currently haven't decided how the world would be shaped, but I'm still leaning towards a multiworld - be that multiverse, void islands, or spheres making up a globe.
* Only one world could be boring. (Not boring in itself, but "more boring" than otherwise.)
* Managing travel between different worlds can be problematic. Especially with armies. Solutions to the multiverse could be mana-expensive planar portals; with the void isles, skyships could plummet into interisle warfare and/or exploration; in the spheres of earth, each floor of existence would probably be even more secluded; however, I am really charmed of the idea that an underground empire suddenly rises and crawls unto the world to attack the overworld. Or cloud world. For example, in Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (The movie of the lot), I usually think of the place Gandalf falls into with the Baelrog as "an underground realm" - as such, it probably seems more interesting to other people. I'm really charmed by the concept.
* Simple floor "stairs" or "tunnels" or "portals" or whatever could work.
* Personally, I wouldn't have problems with more maps.

- There is a possibility each era would change the world between A, B, C and D anyways. But I'd like to add that the most important thing first to figure out is how the "current setting" is.

- I rather like the approach of making the pantheon Olympian in how the gods act; they are powerful, but still have fallacies. I'm not sure if they should intervene too much in earthly conflict though. Their sole "full" intervention should be to start a Ragnarok, perhaps.

- I also rather like the approach of making this inspired by FFH: Having the world start over just after the end of an age (In FFH the Ice Age, of course), and then have the players start from the bottom.

- The idea that the world was created by two greater gods who fought each other and then shattered, their energy (mana?) shaping the world and possibly the pantheon, (Whom I will possibly dub 'demigods' because that word is so badass!) I like that, quite a bit. It makes sense and is simple.

- Mirror realms is an interesting approach. It would mean:
* One realm is essentially dark; the other light. One realm of fire, the other of water; one realm of stone, the other of air. Or whatever.
* When something happens in one realm, it has effects on the other. For example, when one realm has a volcano erupt, an avalanche rolls in the other.
* The two worlds would be shaped much like each other.
* Just a random idea: When mana empties in one realm, it appears in the other...?
* When a hero (or demigod?) dies in one realm, an alternate version of him/her is born in the other?
* I like this.

- Magic, ideas:
* I'd rather stay away from classical elements unless necessary; same with races, you know. I'd rather take fantasy elements on necessity instead of "just because I can". It should filter all the bad stuff out.
* Magic could be a special kind of energy, like actual energy, but which can be shaped and channeled as the power of gods to cast spells.
* Every being could have magical energy in it.
* Magic isn't spent but is rather released and therefore takes time to regenerate.
* Demigods are perhaps beings of very high concentration of mana; magical creatures or creatures with affinity for magic are more powerful than creatures without a magical affinity, simply because magic is such a powerful substance. That would explain why demigods are so godlike compared to earthly puny mortals.
* Magic could be limited of how close the gods are to the earth; increases in power as the source comes closer. With moar magic, therefore moar Ragnarok.

On races: I would personally leave this for a bit until the world has settled. Then I'd probably put up some examplary environments that would need inhabitants; less is more, and I won't add races just because they are present in all fantasy out there. For example, I'm pretty charmed by Zendikar's shamanistic vampires, but as I really, really dislike most kinds of vampires in pop culture. I'm just throwing it in as a by-the-way. I could also promote the use of trows or boggarts or naga because they fit specific environments; and I prefer Norwegian/Danish trolls to the ones running around in Magic: the Gathering and World of Warcraft. Anyways; I think we should wait a bit for the races; although it's one of the things I'm looking forward to the most.

That is, I actually agree with bombshoo; we aren't bound to copy Tolkien. The universe should just have his universe's feel to it. Races are only included if necessary; and let's play with ideas first. After the world has been done, though. I know making races is the juiciest part of creating a fantasy world, but let's give those poor guys some soil to walk on first.

On the process: I see this world-building as first creating a skeleton (Physical laws, world design), then putting muscles on (Lore-making, race inserts, pantheon creation), then putting skin on (Tuning small stuff); but all the while, the skeleton can be reassembled, the muscles torn and the skind stretched, if it makes the whole picture better. My point is, if we decide that this is an all-desert world (Not gonna happen, just sayin'), then realize that mermen would have been cool, then we just make a lake & river system. No big deal; as long as the final world is perfect.

EDIT: I, myself, is preferring the idea of a "mirror world" and a "sky isle world" before a sole world.

Also, I forgot to add:

- Possibly, the game could be "discovery fantasy" - nations discovering "the holy land", flooding to the place, as it has rich resources and old secrets of the world.