India and other colonies

[GinandTonic]

Historically, westerners have treated indigenous African religions with far less respect that they have the indigenous religions of India, east Asia, and the Pacific; I'm not sure why this is, other than sheer prejudice.

Could it be in part related to the impressive temple and monastic architecture?

 

[Quackers]

India for the English

 

[Plotinus]

Could it be in part related to the impressive temple and monastic architecture?

I should think so, plus a general belief that Asians were "civilised" whereas Africans were not (something that probably goes back to the Middle Ages with its legends of wealthy civilisations in the east). Also, early modern Christian missionaries to Asia tended to be Catholics, while the Protestants had proportionally more success in Africa. And Catholic missionaries generally treated the cultures and religions of their host countries with much more respect than Protestants did. Interestingly their converts often inherited these attitudes: Asian Christianity typically involves traditional ancestor veneration, whereas African Christianity typically involves "burning the fetishes" (or it did for much of the twentieth century, at least). For Asians, converting to Christianity did not mean abandoning the traditional practices of their culture, whereas for Africans it did. (This is a very broad generalisation, of course, and I'm thinking mainly of east Asians here rather than south Asians.)

 

[Traitorfish]

I should think so, plus a general belief that Asians were "civilised" whereas Africans were not (something that probably goes back to the Middle Ages with its legends of wealthy civilisations in the east). Also, early modern Christian missionaries to Asia tended to be Catholics, while the Protestants had proportionally more success in Africa. And Catholic missionaries generally treated the cultures and religions of their host countries with much more respect than Protestants did. Interestingly their converts often inherited these attitudes: Asian Christianity typically involves traditional ancestor veneration, whereas African Christianity typically involves "burning the fetishes" (or it did for much of the twentieth century, at least). For Asians, converting to Christianity did not mean abandoning the traditional practices of their culture, whereas for Africans it did. (This is a very broad generalisation, of course, and I'm thinking mainly of east Asians here rather than south Asians.)

Perhaps Asian cultures have something of a learned ability in this regard? After all, they've spent millenia reconciling multiple traditions and philosophies, so perhaps they have something of a knack for it? For example, the Japanese blend Buddhism and Shinto fairly seemlessly, while the Chinese were able to reconcile Confucian philosophy, Taoism, Heaven Worship and various folk religions (the last three all blurring at the edges as it is) without too much trouble. In contrast, all Africa had was tribal religions which had rarely, if ever, been forced to adress external influences, and missionaries from the historically either/or culture of Christian Europe- and Protestant Europe, as you note- neither of which have traditionally exhibited a particular predisposition for reconciling dissonate beliefs.

 

[ParkCungHee]

I should think so, plus a general belief that Asians were "civilised" whereas Africans were not (something that probably goes back to the Middle Ages with its legends of wealthy civilisations in the east). Also, early modern Christian missionaries to Asia tended to be Catholics, while the Protestants had proportionally more success in Africa. And Catholic missionaries generally treated the cultures and religions of their host countries with much more respect than Protestants did. Interestingly their converts often inherited these attitudes: Asian Christianity typically involves traditional ancestor veneration, whereas African Christianity typically involves "burning the fetishes" (or it did for much of the twentieth century, at least). For Asians, converting to Christianity did not mean abandoning the traditional practices of their culture, whereas for Africans it did. (This is a very broad generalisation, of course, and I'm thinking mainly of east Asians here rather than south Asians.)

I would note there's a parallel to this in Protestantism in South Korea, which has taken on this weird modernizing bent, with a sort of Calvinist style association of material welfare with Christianity. Over there, Christianity seems to have some of the appeal that eastern religions have over here: It's (relatively) new, does not have (as much of) an established power structure, and seems less associated with a rigid social structure.

 

[aronnax]

I would note there's a parallel to this in Protestantism in South Korea, which has taken on this weird modernizing bent, with a sort of Calvinist style association of material welfare with Christianity. Over there, Christianity seems to have some of the appeal that eastern religions have over here: It's (relatively) new, does not have (as much of) an established power structure, and seems less associated with a rigid social structure.

I was in Seoul recently, the image of women holding giant red crosses down the district of Insadong and Myeongdong and people in booths singing "halleluah" with giant signs outside that read "Jesus Yes Heaven" and "Jesus No Hell" really really gives me the creeps.

I disagree with you, though as Korean you probably are more well-informed on this, but to me I can draw parallels of the Fundie Christians in Korea with those in Singapore. And both of them seem to be base on pure unquestioning belief, a desire to save people and an even stricter moral and social code that no Eastern Religion can compare to. Not even Confucianism.

 

[ParkCungHee]

I was in Seoul recently, the image of women holding giant red crosses down the district of Insadong and Myeongdong and people in booths singing "halleluah" with giant signs outside that read "Jesus Yes Heaven" and "Jesus No Hell" really really gives me the creeps.

I disagree with you, though as Korean you probably are more well-informed on this, but to me I can draw parallels of the Fundie Christians in Korea with those in Singapore. And both of them seem to be base on pure unquestioning belief, a desire to save people and an even stricter moral and social code that no Eastern Religion can compare to. Not even Confucianism.

I'm not actually Korean. I'm just a former fan of Park Chung He, so don't take me for an expert. On the other hand, I live in Flushing, so that's gotta count for something.

Yes, you're certainly right in saying the Lutheran concept of pure belief is a major, major part in the East Asia protestant community.

And while it's associated with a stricter social and moral code, the key factor (as I see it) is that it's not associated with a strict social order. That is, it does not have the association with worldly matters that it does in the West. By adopting a stricter moral code, they are actually subverting the existing social order. That at least, is part of what I see as it's appeal.

 

[aronnax]

I'm not actually Korean. I'm just a former fan of Park Chung He, so don't take me for an expert. On the other hand, I live in Flushing, so that's gotta count for something.

Yes, you're certainly right in saying the Lutheran concept of pure belief is a major, major part in the East Asia protestant community.

And while it's associated with a stricter social and moral code, the key factor (as I see it) is that it's not associated with a strict social order. That is, it does not have the association with worldly matters that it does in the West. By adopting a stricter moral code, they are actually subverting the existing social order. That at least, is part of what I see as it's appeal.

Oops. I thought you were Korean for the last 2 years!

So... the Korean people just want a different kind of social oppression? Because it's not the old Confucianism? Why not just defect to North Korea...

 

[ParkCungHee]

Well that's a different way of putting it, but in general its the pattern of how more restrictive religious practices come about. People need to be energized usually to adopt more strict practices, and nothing energizes people better then phrasing it in the language of rebellion rather then conformity. That's how Confucianism became so dominant in Korea in the first place: Even though it's the most conservative system imaginable, by taking on the Buddhist establishment it brought about religious energy that the Buddhists lacked.

 

[aronnax]

Well that's a different way of putting it, but in general its the pattern of how more restrictive religious practices come about. People need to be energized usually to adopt more strict practices, and nothing energizes people better then phrasing it in the language of rebellion rather then conformity. That's how Confucianism became so dominant in Korea in the first place: Even though it's the most conservative system imaginable, by taking on the Buddhist establishment it brought about religious energy that the Buddhists lacked.

So what can we expect in another 250 years? Islam in Seoul?

 

[Plotinus]

I don't know a great deal about Korean Christianity but I don't think it's so similar to the dominant kinds in Singapore. As I understand it, the huge churches in Korea are basically Pentecostal. But the Singaporean megachurches preach a kind of moderate evangelical prosperity Gospel. The prosperity Gospel (which amounts to saying that if you're a good Christian you'll do materially well in life) is an American invention but obviously one which accords very well with Chinese culture. So I don't think the religious situation is really all that similar between these two countries, and neither can the major churches in either be dismissed as "fundies". Christian fundamentalists are quite distinct from both Pentecostalism and the prosperity Gospel and are generally suspicious of both.

Personally I'd think that whatever the flaws of these forms of Christianity they've got to be preferable to Confucianism, but perhaps that's just me. In any case I don't think that there's any form of Christianity in the Chinese cultural world, at least, which represents a rejection of Confucianism; Confucian principles are just so deeply ingrained into that society. As far as I can tell, at any rate.

 

[amadeus]

Under "A" rol level voting their was 5% Black participation. In "B" roll voting 10% black partiicpation. This sytem was to be continued with further increasing participation till it were majority black.

Actually, the Rhodesian Constitution called for eventual equal parliamentary representation between blacks and whites -- neither would ever have a majority if it had been realized (it probably honestly wouldn't have...)

Ian Smith wasn't British.

Harold Wilson thought he was.

Erm, wow. Perhaps those Africans voted for their tribe because they just wanted to. Saying they did so because they "don't know better" is rather presumptive, don't you think?

Well, maybe it had more to do with Mugabe's platform of "I'm going to rob these guys and give you everything and life will be great" -- basically, he copied and pasted the manifesto of every failed African socialist of the 20th century and subsequently followed through on it.

 

[Traitorfish]

Personally I'd think that whatever the flaws of these forms of Christianity they've got to be preferable to Confucianism, but perhaps that's just me. In any case I don't think that there's any form of Christianity in the Chinese cultural world, at least, which represents a rejection of Confucianism; Confucian principles are just so deeply ingrained into that society. As far as I can tell, at any rate.

I suppose China is a rarity in Asia in that it has an indigenous monotheistic tradition in the form of Heaven Worship, albeit one that's faded from popularity with the collapse of the empire and the dissolution of the Imperial Cult. If nothing else, it provides a model for the reconciliation of monotheistic belief with a Confucian social order; indeed, that particular model is an ideal expression of Confucian principles.

Even though it's the most conservative system imaginable...

I'm sure not if that's quite fair- Confucianism has certain meritocratic leanings, especially in the administrative professions, in contradiction to the hereditary feudalism dominant in his time. The Imperial examinations system was a result of Confucian thought, a legacy of Confucius' own disdain for the feudal social order of the Warring States period. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why his philosophies seem to sit comfortably alongside the sort of prosperity theology that Plotinus mentioned- both are strong advocates of pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps, but with due respect given to the social order and cultural traditions of one's society.

 

[aronnax]

I don't know a great deal about Korean Christianity but I don't think it's so similar to the dominant kinds in Singapore. As I understand it, the huge churches in Korea are basically Pentecostal. But the Singaporean megachurches preach a kind of moderate evangelical prosperity Gospel. The prosperity Gospel (which amounts to saying that if you're a good Christian you'll do materially well in life) is an American invention but obviously one which accords very well with Chinese culture. So I don't think the religious situation is really all that similar between these two countries, and neither can the major churches in either be dismissed as "fundies". Christian fundamentalists are quite distinct from both Pentecostalism and the prosperity Gospel and are generally suspicious of both.

Trust me when I say that Singaporean Megachurches are fundie. While they will never reach up to the level of the American Religious Right, they are extreme in their own right. Many Singaporean Christians are converts and they tend to blindly follow the bible and become extremely angry when their faith is being questioned. I have an Uncle and Aunt who pray to God to convert the entire family and save our souls. My best friend disbelieves in Evolution and is still convinced that me being gay was a badly made choice on my part. Another friend handed me a pamphlet telling me the dangers of hell. I know an influential Pastor who actually excommunicates people who leave the church that even family members are not allowed to contact them. The pastors here are more like pop-stars. Moderate Christians are the Minority. The churches are like techno shows and hold an incredible wealth. People are becoming more intolerant. In a total twist of irony, in Singapore, the Christians are more religious than the Muslims and are more likely to impose their Christian values about.

Personally I'd think that whatever the flaws of these forms of Christianity they've got to be preferable to Confucianism, but perhaps that's just me. In any case I don't think that there's any form of Christianity in the Chinese cultural world, at least, which represents a rejection of Confucianism; Confucian principles are just so deeply ingrained into that society. As far as I can tell, at any rate.

For me, I think that the Singaporean form of Christianity is far worst. They erase cultural links and deteriorate old traditions, even if they are not religion related. Confucian principles are not as ingrained in society as you think. Especially among the Youth, many Buddhist/Taoist/Chinese Folk Religion and the irreligious are more flexible and tolerant of than New Christians. My parents are probably the last generation to be born in the "Traditional Era" (1950s) and they allow me a high degree of liberty and I do not obey the supposed social convention. And I am not the only one.

 

[ParkCungHee]

I'm sure not if that's quite fair- Confucianism has certain meritocratic leanings, especially in the administrative professions, in contradiction to the hereditary feudalism dominant in his time. The Imperial examinations system was a result of Confucian thought, a legacy of Confucius' own disdain for the feudal social order of the Warring States period. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why his philosophies seem to sit comfortably alongside the sort of prosperity theology that Plotinus mentioned- both are strong advocates of pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps, but with due respect given to the social order and cultural traditions of one's society.

I don't see these things as necesarily incompatible with Conservatism. In fact the disdain for the hereditary feudelism (from my own perspective) is a very conservative principle, and the continuous warring of the Feudel states disrupted the social fabric and made a steady pattern of society impossible, as governments rose and fell every few years and the people were displaced.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Many Singaporean Christians are converts and they tend to blindly follow the bible and become extremely angry when their faith is being questioned.

Just the neophyte zeal. When the exotics wears off, it all'll be back to normal mundane boring stuff, I assume.

The Imperial examinations system was a result of Confucian thought, a legacy of Confucius' own disdain for the feudal social order of the Warring States period.

Mind you, the Chinese practice was quite different from its theory. In practice, government posts were largely hereditary anyway.

 

[Traitorfish]

I don't see these things as necesarily incompatible with Conservatism. In fact the disdain for the hereditary feudelism (from my own perspective) is a very conservative principle, and the continuous warring of the Feudel states disrupted the social fabric and made a steady pattern of society impossible, as governments rose and fell every few years and the people were displaced.

I understood your use of "conservative" to be used in the literal sense, and so pointed out that the dissolution of the feudal system was, in the time of Confucius, a fairly progressive notion. I did not realise that you used "conservative" in reference to the modern ideology, if that's what you mean (and the above post seems to imply).

 

[eoc]

Dose someone mean that it is Confucianism which lead the notion to the conservative?

I don't know what happened in Korea. In China, there were indeed scholars due the conservative to Confucianism. While we know that those scholars were right at that time, but they are wrong at the current time.

 

[ParkCungHee]

I understood your use of "conservative" to be used in the literal sense, and so pointed out that the dissolution of the feudal system was, in the time of Confucius, a fairly progressive notion. I did not realise that you used "conservative" in reference to the modern ideology, if that's what you mean (and the above post seems to imply).

It's okay. "Conservative" is one of the most confusing terms to define these days, so it's really hard to use it and be clear to any extent.

 

[plarq]

Dose someone mean that it is Confucianism which lead the notion to the conservative?

I don't know what happened in Korea. In China, there were indeed scholars due the conservative to Confucianism. While we know that those scholars were right at that time, but they are wrong at the current time.

In China it is called cultural conservatism that re-worship Confucianism teachings.