India changes?

New Unique Improvement Animal Garden

Constructs a garden around animal pastures such as cattle and horses that generate +1 faith along with the food since the milk is still used from cows but cows are considered sacred in Hinduism. But would that make pastures too good? with +3 food, +1 production and +1 faith.
 
New Unique Improvement Animal Garden

Constructs a garden around animal pastures such as cattle and horses that generate +1 faith along with the food since the milk is still used from cows but cows are considered sacred in Hinduism. But would that make pastures too good? with +3 food, +1 production and +1 faith.

Definitely wouldn't, as the Huns and Russians each get an extra hammer; 1 faith definitely isn't too good.
 
I actually like India's UA, even with the 'disincentive' piece. However, it would make a bit more sense for them to gain some relgious bonus as they would have if they were released in G&K or if the orginal game had relgion as a mechanic.
 
Yes, I've mentioned this. I was speaking about the situation in G&K.

Oh, sorry. (That wasn't very clear in your post however.)

1. I don't get how domestic TR are linked to lux trading. Overall, lux trading is more difficult in BNW as trading for lump sums requires DoF.

2. India is the hardest civ to get a religion. I'm afraid it would be even worse in BNW as Piety opener halves building cost for Shrines and Temples and thus opponents who focus on religion will be able to benefit from their number of cities much better.

1. Sending food DTRs to cities will get them up to the magic 6-pop mark faster, letting them earn happiness faster, letting the civ sell their luxuries faster. Lux trading will be equal for everyone, so I don't see the relevance.

2. I made a mistake - the happiness->culture SP is now in Aesthetics, not Piety.:blush: Nevertheless, the point stands I think, it's a tier-one SP in a tree all culture players will be completing. A four city cultural India will probably want it.
 
So the Mughal fort gets tourism instead of gold at flight. But the Moai Statues still get gold at flight? Those changes would be almost identical. Sounds like they just wanted to avoid touching up the DLC civs.
 
So the Mughal fort gets tourism instead of gold at flight. But the Moai Statues still get gold at flight? Those changes would be almost identical. Sounds like they just wanted to avoid touching up the DLC civs.

I think the Moai statues don't get gold at flight... instead they get tourism with a Hotel. (because they are a terrain improvement)
 
I think the Moai statues don't get gold at flight... instead they get tourism with a Hotel. (because they are a terrain improvement)

That works just fine; thanks for that info :)

The gold from flight might have been something from NiGHTS that I mistakenly applied to vanilla.
 
That works just fine; thanks for that info :)

The gold from flight might have been something from NiGHTS that I mistakenly applied to vanilla.

Gold from flight IS something they get currently

I think it might be removed though (otherwise they could be overpowered)
 
I can't comment on India in BNW to any great extent, but I can sure add this to my earlier comments in this thread (which were about how managing arbitrary happiness numbers isn't an interesting UA).

It does little good in my mind for people to defend India's UB. It is certifiably terrible in G&K unless you get Neuschwanstein (and only then it's good because you'd have already built most of the castles before you finish the wonder as opposed to shortly after like all other civs who build it). To get the +2 culture (in the LATE MEDIEVAL era, mind you), you have to first build walls and then castles in a lot of cities that otherwise do not need the defenses.

Compared to the Songhai who get +2 culture from temples which are then subsequently maintenance free, and are an otherwise useful building that comes in the classical era, the Mughal fort is terrible. Songhai's UB gives them way more flavor towards being a religious civ, and as a result they can just build a happiness oriented religion and outperform India in my opinion. The Mud Pyramid is on the same tech as the NC and their UA is much more domination oriented as a plus.

Edit: A few more things when it comes to warmongering in this India vs Songhai comparison..

The Mughal Fort and the walls that are required to build it can provide +1 happiness each thanks to honor policies. Songhai can do the exact same thing with walls and a castle. And the Honor opener is WAY better for Songhai.

The Mughal Fort requires walls which may or may not be useful for the given city. The Mud Pyramid Mosque requires a shrine which is always useful and both faith buildings can have their production time sliced with the Piety opener (and can have other benefits thanks to religion).

As someone mentioned, India has to expand more slowly meaning fewer faith buildings for "hard founding" a religion. Songhai has no such limitation.

Someone said that the elephant archer is more intended as a defensive unit while your population is increasing. I agree. The Mandy Cav while not great is certainly geared for city capture.

For warmongering, by taking Autocracy both India and Songhai can quick build courthouses. India's city if high pop will not be as happiness costly. Songhai gets triple gold for capturing cities and can purchase a happiness building or another unit immediately to continue steamrolling. Unless there is some other India Domination victory strategy I'm not aware of in G&K - win to Songhai.

About the only place where India tries to be on top is with the Mughal Fort's late gold bonus (soon to be tourism I guess). You can't guarantee being able to stack that with Neuschwanstein like you can guarantee stacking Honor and Piety Policies with Songhai. Also Songhai's temples are FREE. So in that category, even potentially post BNW I still say Songhai is better in the numbers. Murder by numbers for Songhai - and from earlier in the game when it's easier to conquer civs. You get about 20 - 30 more turns of culture out of your UB's than India. And I have barely even mentioned the other parts of Songhai's UA and their implications. And lastly, Piety and Rationalism can both be open now in BNW so that's another buff for Songhai! I pray they don't take away that +2 culture for balance... *out of breath* :run:

For me it's not that India is bad - it's just not as good as people are making out! It's not pro, it's just mild and boring!
 
We agree India can be a great mid-later game warmonger, that's good, but I fail to see why it's a problem that the UA then has a name of something else.

What if the Mongol UA was still called "Mongol Terror," but the actual ability was "Gain 90 Influence with a Great Person gift to a City-State. When declaring friendship, Mongolia and their friend gain a +10% boost to Great Person generation."?

It's not just that the name is nonsense, it's that the ability is nonsense too. It is a terrible misrepresentation of India. It's also not as good as you claim. It's nice to be able to gobble up big cities in the late game without worrying about unhappiness, but it doesn't really help you win; you can always raze them down if you can't handle the population. If you have a military adequate to the task of taking one large city in the late game, you've pretty much already won—if you have Artillery and they don't, if you have Great War Bombers and they don't, you win. And India's UA doesn't help you get there.
 
Yea Wigwam and others state it very clearly. India UA is nice in late game because your already winning. When you're settled with 5-8 cities growing populations, good amt of resources, happiness, gold, and culture well then great the UA helps then. But in the first 100 turns the UA is your worst enemy. It hurts really badly.

Summary: "It helps when your winning, but doesn't help you win."

Whereas other civ's UA grants early defense (Ethipoia UA), tech boosts (babylon-UA), early gold (chinese-papermaker), etc.

If they took out the penalty, added 10 percent growth rate in times of peace, slashed on 25% unhappiness due to population and granted +1 faith due to pastures and for minority religions - excellent perfect bonus UA
(I know this a lot its more just to illustrate a bunch of ideas.)

slightly better UU.

Also funny UB - Bollywood (replaces theatre/broadcast tower/) +4 happiness -1 production because those movies WASTE time. But we still watch em cuz they are happiness inducing.
 
India is the home of many important world religions. It would be appropriate for them to be able to found many religions, as well as get an early +faith building to help them get there. The entire +population in a small area crap makes no sense to me. Japan and China are at least as population dense and you don't see them getting weird +population benefits.

They would still only get the benefits of 1 pantheon belief - the one that's the dominant religion in a particular city. They'll just be able to get multiple follower beliefs, assuming they spend the faith necessary to spread all their religions around. This requires a significant amount of resources, not like Byzantine's ability which is basically free.
 
This completely depends on difficulty level. In G&K on Emperor+ India is one of the weakest civs. Hope with happiness adjustments of BNW it will be better.

Exactly, I forgot to mention that. 10:1 odds that most people praising India play on King or below, which is completely fine. However, you can't really consider a Civ's strengths and weaknesses unless you put them on at least Emperor (preferably Immortal/Deity).


I beg to differ, just won my first all random domination game with India. Just as has been said its an ability that requires thinking out of the box. Nothing straightforward and forces you to go out of the norm planning. But that doesn't mean its week. Its different thats all.

Against high-level AI the whole territory becomes settled quite fast. India can't counter this. They have to go extremely tall early in the game. Later (after the cities are closer to the point there India is equal with other civs) it could start expanding, but there's no space for this. The only option is to start offensive war and it's a difficult thing as Elephants are already not so killer unit by this time and will quickly obsolete during the war.

So, in these conditions India UA actually forces them very strict to follow a defined early path. And the forcing comes not from bonuses provided, but from penalties to other strategies.

Again, that's against high-level AI. Against low-level AI or humans you usually have space for second wave expansion, which is an absolute game changer for India.

War is the answer to your settling problem. Not to mention that you dont want to settle more than two cities in the first place. Also you don't need to depend on the elephants. Saying that is akin to claiming that every civ with say, ancient units is completely useless in the mid/late game.
 
Yea, pretty disappointed that they didn't fix this garbage UA :(
 
I'm with those who think India's UA isn't bad at all. My strategies always involve a dominant focus on food to make them grow faster and India is the one that benefits the most from that. While with every other civs I end up having happiness problems with India I do not.

I think that india is mostly geared towards cultural victories and when you take the piety tree that happiness conversion will benefit India a lot more than France's UA or Polynesia's moai (with BNW that might change, but then again India is getting tourism bonuses).

I must agree however that India turns out to be very weak religion-wise and that doesn't quite reflect the real world civilization's spiritualism.

At least Arabia got a religious bonus now.
 
In case it hasn't been mentioned here, it was noted that the happiness system got reworked. India's new UA may seem better/worse with the new changes coming our way.
 
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