India changes?

[adwcta]

I don't follow. Are sea trade routes supposed to help Japan somehow?

Ships don't heal outside of friendly territory. Especially early on, when open borders is not established yet, and you're working with your triremes, the Japanese UA (which has always shined more for naval/air battles than land battles) will be more useful. I'm confident it will be a noticeable difference between Sailing and Compass (which a large and important chunk of time in the game).

Ottoman (and actually Byzantine too) will get a boost for similar reasons.

I mean, it's still not great, but barbarian ships are nasty to triremes on higher difficulty levels if you don't have Honor.

 

[NukeAJS]

I'm gonna side with the Mughul fort makes tourism people.

 

[wigwam]

Ships don't heal outside of friendly territory. Especially early on, when open borders is not established yet, and you're working with your triremes, the Japanese UA (which has always shined more for naval/air battles than land battles) will be more useful. I'm confident it will be a noticeable difference between Sailing and Compass (which a large and important chunk of time in the game).

Ottoman (and actually Byzantine too) will get a boost for similar reasons.

I mean, it's still not great, but barbarian ships are nasty to triremes on higher difficulty levels if you don't have Honor.

Thanks, that's a very sound explanation. It does seem like a fairly minor boost to Japan, though (I don't think they even have a coast start bias).

 

[adwcta]

Thanks, that's a very sound explanation. It does seem like a fairly minor boost to Japan, though (I don't think they even have a coast start bias).

Thanks. I guess it depends on what map you play. If you play anything but Pangaea, you should be able to reach the coast by your 2nd city (in fact, considering you get 2x gold for sea routes, this is probably a priority for all civs, unless there's a really good mountain + river spot elsewhere or you're plotting to take out a neighbor's coastal city soon).

(and for the record, you are right, Japan has no start bias.)

India's falling behind its low-tier buddies with BNW changes unless it gets a boost somehow. Since they've already confirmed that a change is coming (although, not a major one), I hope it's one that makes India more powerful, not one that's just a lateral change to use new mechanics.

 

[nanomage]

When compared to a proper warring civ? (see closest example: China, which granted, is an overpowered civ) India is underpowered. India gets a good early elephant rush (which is almost 100% negated by China's GG bonus, and cbs upgrade into CKNs), and then +2 culture per city (instead of China's +2 gold, which also comes earlier). For domination, India is pretty much strictly worse than China (who also have a dominant CKN era and then the GG bonus is still there).

India is underpowered, not unplayable. I just outlined a strategy for India domination, so I know it works (no reading IC2 required, although I just read through that thread and it didn't really make me think much more highly of India). All the civs are workable in this game. The civs are not so different from each other (each civ has only 3 things unique about them) that any civ would be completely dead in the water.

What's troubling is that for standard settings on land/water balanced maps, most of the other weaker civs (Japan, Byzantine, Polynesia) are getting boosts with BNW mechanics (sea trade routes, piety start, world congress), and India doesn't seem to be. That's why there's more of a need to give India something extra, especially when it's current preferred play-style past classical era is almost certainly not what the civ was designed for.

Well noone would say India is better that China. Comparing anything to top tier civs isn't gonna tell us who's UP, because everyone would look so. Still, even China would be t140 at best after CB into CKN sweep, and no other proper warring civ would have it better. Sorry that I keep mentioning that thread, it's just the best way to back my words I know is referring to practice.
As for India getting boosted in BnW, they're gonna have tourism from their castles I'm sure, though it's not really clear how much of a boon that will be.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well noone would say India is better that China. Comparing anything to top tier civs isn't gonna tell us who's UP, because everyone would look so. Still, even China would be t140 at best after CB into CKN sweep, and no other proper warring civ would have it better. Sorry that I keep mentioning that thread, it's just the best way to back my words I know is referring to practice.
As for India getting boosted in BnW, they're gonna have tourism from their castles I'm sure, though it's not really clear how much of a boon that will be.

Well I guess it boosts India's

Early UP Tall/Late OP Wide theme... tourism from every city will surely help.

 

[SnowKomodo]

So India's only change comes from Mughal Forts upon Flight.

The devs aren't stupid. They read the forums. They know India's UA was not well-received.

Until it is confirmed 100%, we have to assume everything else is the same. So that must meant there is a function for Population Growth that they saw worked with the new mechanics. What would that be?

 

[DemonMaster]

So India's only change comes from Mughal Forts upon Flight.

The devs aren't stupid. They read the forums. They know India's UA was not well-received.

Until it is confirmed 100%, we have to assume everything else is the same. So that must meant there is a function for Population Growth that they saw worked with the new mechanics. What would that be?

Local food trade routes will help growth. They can open Piety at start and perhaps pick a helpful pantheon.

 

[wigwam]

The devs aren't stupid. They read the forums. They know India's UA was not well-received. […] So that must meant there is a function for Population Growth that they saw worked with the new mechanics. What would that be?

India has always been treated shabbily by the Civ series—Gandhi as a perpetual joke of a leader, totally uninspired UUs and UBs (as bad as India is in Civ 5, it can't compare to the horror that was the Fast Worker). They have seemingly no interest in anything about the civ other than elephants, the Mughals, and racist stereotypes.

So don't get your hopes up.

 

[ferretbacon]

India has always been treated shabbily by the Civ series—Gandhi as a perpetual joke of a leader, totally uninspired UUs and UBs (as bad as India is in Civ 5, it can't compare to the horror that was the Fast Worker). They have seemingly no interest in anything about the civ other than elephants, the Mughals, and racist stereotypes.

So don't get your hopes up.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Such a shame. The Indian subcontinent deserves more than one civilization. It would be nice if the one civilization they did include was at least well thought out.

 

[Loaf Warden]

India has always been treated shabbily by the Civ series—Gandhi as a perpetual joke of a leader, totally uninspired UUs and UBs (as bad as India is in Civ 5, it can't compare to the horror that was the Fast Worker). They have seemingly no interest in anything about the civ other than elephants, the Mughals, and racist stereotypes.

So don't get your hopes up.

I have to agree. Quite apart from the gameplay issues everyone already complains about, I'm still shaking my head at the vaguely racist UA.

"What's notable about India?"
"I dunno. They have a lot of kids? There's, like, a billion of them, right?"
"Good enough for me. Where do you want to get lunch?"

I'm really hoping that Civ VI will feature a Faith system from day one, and that India's ability (if the UA is still in use in Civ VI) will make use of that. And that their leader will be someone who isn't Gandhi.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

They have said that happiness has been changed, perhaps City Unhappiness and Luxury Happiness have been scaled back down.

 

[arik24]

India UA is not weak see the latest Polycast for info

 

[ferretbacon]

India UA is not weak see the latest Polycast for info

It's undeniably weak. Thematically, it's based on a demographic that isn't particularly relevant to the culture or people. It's almost universally disliked by the community. Why they aren't modifying it a bit boggles my mind.

 

[Zednaught]

It's undeniably weak.

A statement like that asks for something to back it up, particularly to refute the strong arguments made in its favor in the Polycast.

Thematically, you may have a point. I've thought that some kind of religious UB might be nice, and it's UU is pretty bland.

 

[Aaron90495]

A statement like that asks for something to back it up, particularly to refute the strong arguments made in its favor in the Polycast.

Thematically, you may have a point. I've thought that some kind of religious UB might be nice, and it's UU is pretty bland.

I listened to the recent episode, and while MadDjinn's argument is compelling, I still maintain India is a weak civ. Yes, they can be strong late, but that's overshadowed by the fact that they're weak early. If you can get over the hump to the late-game, then great! But in all likelihood, the early game disadvantage will put you in too bad of a position to succeed in the late game.

Barring an early-game miracle, anything India can do, other civs can do better.

 

[Luckystrike77]

Seems like many people have problems understanding how great the Indian UA is. It's by far my favorite civ, great for both going tall and wide. You just shouldn't expand too fast early game. That's the only cost, but also means you can build a Wonder or two instead, or prepare for some warmongering, while the others build settlers, workers or scouts to steal workers.

Seems like some people don't understand India because it's not a straight forward benefit like for instance 50% longer golden ages, or +1 line of sight. Dare I say there might be a lack of creativity amongst some of us? India, as well as Venice in BNW me thinks, needs some extra thought, planning and strategy, but can be extremely rewarding in the right players hands.

NB! Their UU is also pure fantastic and hard to kill. I also love the UB, since I tend to be very cultural and defensive in parts of the game at least.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Seems like many People have problems understanding how great the Indian UA is. It's by far my favorite civ, great for both going tall and wide. You just shouldn't expand too fast early game. That's the only cost, but also means you can build a Wonder or two instead, or prepare for some warmongering.

This completely depends on difficulty level. In G&K on Emperor+ India is one of the weakest civs. Hope with happiness adjustments of BNW it will be better.

 

[Aaron90495]

This completely depends on difficulty level. In G&K on Emperor+ India is one of the weakest civs. Hope with happiness adjustments of BNW it will be better.

Exactly, I forgot to mention that. 10:1 odds that most people praising India play on King or below, which is completely fine. However, you can't really consider a Civ's strengths and weaknesses unless you put them on at least Emperor (preferably Immortal/Deity).

 

[Luckystrike77]

This completely depends on difficulty level. In G&K on Emperor+ India is one of the weakest civs. Hope with happiness adjustments of BNW it will be better.

My experience is based on NQ FFA multiplayer only, I never play singleplayer. In the hands of good players India has a great potential, weak players seems to do relatively worse with them then with other civs.

The thing about the Indian UA is that it doesen't tell you how to play. Other UA's like for instance the new assyrian one tells you straight forward what a good strategy might be. With India you have to combine alot of skills, like early city growth and empire management, cultural focus and defensive thinking. You will also often have to combine this with some mid-game warmongering or early game defensive war against aggressive neighbours. City placements becomes crucial too, you should get at least two good/OK cities that are not provoking your human opponents too much (so they fight some others before attacking you) and that also are in OK defensive positions. Grow these 2 large with tradition, then start some expansion attacking a weaker neigbour, or a civ that are in war in the back.

Not expanding so fast and being able to grow the cities huge thanx to happiness bonuses are quite good. You dont need so many settlers and workers, you can go tradition even with not the best production in the start, and you might get some of the very benefitial early Wonders alot easier then other civs. India doesent need to steal workers either, and can instead focus on building up CS relations, and training it's elephants killing barb camps.