Flips should definitely be left in. I tend to play with very low culture, and this is powerful enough without getting rid of flips. There are lots of other things in the game which are much more randomizing than flips. See the cotm2 spoiler for my own particular bugbear.
Interesting/Important Debate - COTM without Cultural Conversions (flips)
- Thread starter Denniz
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Further to grs's response: You would also need to purge the city of foreigners. I posted that in response to Scout's point about large cities of your own. Note that the chance of a city flipping with one foreigner and 15 natives is the same as one flipping with one foreigner and zero natives (if local culture and tiles are the same).Bibor said:
The best option for zero flip chance is to completely eliminate that other civ. You can't flip to a civ that is dead (although you can still flip to one that has no cities, if they still have a settler).
i would like to come up with another technical question: are wounded units *worse* in any way in the task of quelling resistors or patroling "local" citizens? i put the wounded units into a captured city as guards and keep on fighting with the unwounded, whereas in this thread i read some players do it vice versa. why?
my comment to keep the thread *on-topic*: i would vote "keep flips in"; those wartime culture flips become more of problem if you are 1. a warmongerer aiming for conquest/domination, 2. u are an advanced player from the better half of the league.
besides, there evolved some strategies to avoid/cope with wartime culture flips, as the technical questions in the threat show.
thinking about it, i comes to my mind that the problem with culture flips are problematic in wartime whereas peaceful culture flips as much less annoying to almost all players. i speculate that the human player more often profits from peacetime culture flips (e.g. creating 'culture bombs', a strategy which is unknown to the ai) whereas the ai benefits from the wartime culture flips as a kind of little helper for the ai to its merely moderate warring strategies.
disabling culture flips would therefore mean to negate a game concept as a whole as a solution to a particular problem in particular strategies of particular players.
[/statement]
my comment to keep the thread *on-topic*: i would vote "keep flips in"; those wartime culture flips become more of problem if you are 1. a warmongerer aiming for conquest/domination, 2. u are an advanced player from the better half of the league.
besides, there evolved some strategies to avoid/cope with wartime culture flips, as the technical questions in the threat show.
thinking about it, i comes to my mind that the problem with culture flips are problematic in wartime whereas peaceful culture flips as much less annoying to almost all players. i speculate that the human player more often profits from peacetime culture flips (e.g. creating 'culture bombs', a strategy which is unknown to the ai) whereas the ai benefits from the wartime culture flips as a kind of little helper for the ai to its merely moderate warring strategies.
disabling culture flips would therefore mean to negate a game concept as a whole as a solution to a particular problem in particular strategies of particular players.
[/statement]
A unit is a unit. Health, & strength don't matter so long as it is a unit that would work for MP duty.
grs
nameless one
@ainwood: that's what I meant. Either remove foreigners or keep them quiet with 1 garrison per foreigner.
Look at anarres' thread HighDesert
Chieftain
AlanH said:I really don't see that there's any justification for believing the software is "cheating". Why would the programmers do it? It's not as if they are taking personal pleasure from beating the human player
Alan,
Did you ever play Civ2? Civ2 was perhaps the cheatin-est game ever produced. The developer messed up badly by including various "Cheat Modes" that allowed you to see what the AI was up to. The absolute worst was when you were 1 turn away from building a wonder and the AI would award itself the wonder without having built it. There is a history of cheating on the developer's part. Civ2 cheated so badly I think any reasonable person would conclude that you either cheat right back or dump the disk in the trash.
It is apparent that the major design goal of the AI is to place obstacles in the player's path. Actually makes sense to me. Who wants to play a game that can't be won?! Flips strike me as obstacles in the player's path. You don't lose a game over them, but they slow things down a bit. In this regard flips seem fairly reasonable.
However, I have experienced a number of flips which seem a bit too much in terms of a bad roll of the RNG. My reported GOTM32 taking of an entire invasion force was not the first time that has happened to me. And you have noted one of the AI's favorites, flipping a wonder so that the benefit is immediately felt by the loss of units. Or how about the other all time favorite...flip the city with the critical resources. These AI actions SMELL to me. They smell like cheating.
I believe the developer includes cheating in his bag of tricks. He has cheated in the past. He is cheating now. He'll probably cheat in the future.
And, even if I'm completely wrong about thses flips being intentional cheating on the part of the developer, they are so ineptly implemented as to be regarded with nothing but disdain.
Whichever is the case, the developer has disrespected the time it takes to learn, not to mention play, this game. Stack the deck against us, fine. Let the AI know the whole map/resources/barbarians, fine. Let the AI tech whip us, fine. MPP dogpile, make my day. And any other of the number of inequities we endure, fine.
But swoop in and just take something from me that I have spent months learning how to do, and hours in the specific implementation, and my response is going to be something other than satifaction that my time has been well spent.
For those who have not seen my stance on this, I'll restate. Any game which flips a signicant military force, wonders in a smelly fashion or towns with game altering resources will be immediately abandoned by me. It goes right straight to the electronic trash, where it belongs.
HighDesert
Chieftain
@The many of you who have offered suggestions for improving the flip "feature".
Almost no one thinks that flips have been implemented in the software other than stupidly.
However, SirPleb points out, no doubt correctly, that we have seen the last Civ3 and that the developer probably doesn't even read bug reports at this point.
So, as right as these suggestions for changing flips all are, it seems a fultile exercise.
The question which appears to be on the table is whether or not COTM should dispense with flips entirely?
My response to that question would be...why, yes, it should. If not, per my previous post(s), I have my response to inappropriate flips identified in advance.
Almost no one thinks that flips have been implemented in the software other than stupidly.
However, SirPleb points out, no doubt correctly, that we have seen the last Civ3 and that the developer probably doesn't even read bug reports at this point.
So, as right as these suggestions for changing flips all are, it seems a fultile exercise.
The question which appears to be on the table is whether or not COTM should dispense with flips entirely?
My response to that question would be...why, yes, it should. If not, per my previous post(s), I have my response to inappropriate flips identified in advance.
HighDesert
Chieftain
mad-bax said:
Hi M-B...
The "18" made me think you were directing this at me as this was what I lost in GOTM32.
I was playing 20K in GOTM32 and was one of the Cultural Gorillas in that game. The flip in question was to a civ with about 10% more culture than me. No way will anyone ever convince me of the reasonableness of this. 10% less culture is does not exactly make a cultural minnow.
I don't mind flips and it's rare I put too many units in a city after I've captured it. Most of the time I just leave one or two units outside to heal and the rest of the mob moves on.
But when you wiped out the other civ's all towns and a settler in a galley can make a city flip, then it crosses the border to insanity. There I sit with a dozen knights in a city and as they are getting fatter, suddenly the city flips and the units are a memory.
I check the diplo and that's now the only city the enemy got, so the cultural settler in the galley dispersed of my whole army...or most of it.
There should be some way of at least save some units, send them back to the capitol or whatever, but losing all is too frustrating. (Thinking of HighDesert's bad luck here)
But all in all, flips has to be in as all other random stuff, as there is no way to go about it right now, but to endure it.
But when you wiped out the other civ's all towns and a settler in a galley can make a city flip, then it crosses the border to insanity. There I sit with a dozen knights in a city and as they are getting fatter, suddenly the city flips and the units are a memory.
I check the diplo and that's now the only city the enemy got, so the cultural settler in the galley dispersed of my whole army...or most of it.
There should be some way of at least save some units, send them back to the capitol or whatever, but losing all is too frustrating. (Thinking of HighDesert's bad luck here)
But all in all, flips has to be in as all other random stuff, as there is no way to go about it right now, but to endure it.
smackster
SGOTM
Yes I remember the other time that happened to you and I finshed your turns for you. And we still got our objective and won that game. Its just random, I've played too many games where there was a very high flip chance, and it didn't happen, and I didn't lose my critical resource, or my army. In fact many more games where the city that flipped was right next to my reserve stack on its way to the front, so that it was easily taken and did me a favour as it slightly reduced the city size. Maybe the AI cheats for me, and against you.HighDesert said:
But we know how it works, we have formulas, and utilities to tell us what the flip chance is. Clearly we don't like it, but assuming you do still continue to play (and this is not the first time I've seen you say you are not playing it anymore) stop putting large stacks of troops in cities with a high flip chance.HighDesert said:
Its not like we don't have a bigger bag of tricks that we can use to beat the AI, I've seen you win pre-1000AD, I've done that too, how badly do we trash the AI in that case, and sometimes on the highest level. Clearly we all know there is much that they could have done better, but show me a better game? I'll play it.HighDesert said:
I agree there comes a time when it is time to move on to another game, I've played a lot of games in my time, but none as much as this, and I still feel that I'll be playing it in a years time, there just is nothing else that endures like this. I highly doubt that Civ4 will be better.HighDesert said:
grs
nameless one
@ainwood: This was the starting question
and my answer was:
Yes, if you have 1 garrison per non-resisting foreigner and that seems to me like the formula of anarres (neglecting wltkd)
and my answer was:
Yes, if you have 1 garrison per non-resisting foreigner and that seems to me like the formula of anarres (neglecting wltkd)
grs
nameless one
@highsesert:You know that statement will make it less fun to discuss this with you
Bibor
Doomsday Machine
Here should be a "chance of flip" number in editor under Culture. IMHO, Cultural dominance should be either not included OR more powerful. Now, its only a nusiance (it happens once, twice in a single game, umm, maybe more if on huge map dunno i never play those).
Lets be honest, 100 cities with temple and library (5 cpt) will kill a 20 city culture powerhouse with temple, library, cathedral and university (12 cpt, possibly more after a 1000, 2000 years). Not to mention critical resources, luxuries that you lack as being small.
This means that the best way to win is to be strong in warfare. All the other versions are questionable (a 100 city player will catch up fast in culture, UN votes depend on size and population) except maybe spacerace.
Okay then.
Let's make culture stronger. Make the chance of flip very high that can be quelled only by large garrison. This sounds reasonable. I'm culture freak, you are army freak. we are even. You cant take my cities cuz they will just flip back to me, i can't flip your cities cuz you have a sizable garrison. You can raze my city to prevent flip, i can flip and raze every city you forgot to garrison. The deviation from this optimal situation makes the winner.
Why sould i build culture buildings except temple at all? I can be an all-out warmonger and win every time. Yeah, sure, "long term investment, buildings last longer than units" blah blah. But with 20 shield investment in units you can capture/raze a city with 60 shield investment in buildings. ... these new conquered lands are unproductive? Oh my... it's the prevention method: maybe it's not productive to me, but now it's definitely less productive to you.
-bibor
Lets be honest, 100 cities with temple and library (5 cpt) will kill a 20 city culture powerhouse with temple, library, cathedral and university (12 cpt, possibly more after a 1000, 2000 years). Not to mention critical resources, luxuries that you lack as being small.
This means that the best way to win is to be strong in warfare. All the other versions are questionable (a 100 city player will catch up fast in culture, UN votes depend on size and population) except maybe spacerace.
Okay then.
Let's make culture stronger. Make the chance of flip very high that can be quelled only by large garrison. This sounds reasonable. I'm culture freak, you are army freak. we are even. You cant take my cities cuz they will just flip back to me, i can't flip your cities cuz you have a sizable garrison. You can raze my city to prevent flip, i can flip and raze every city you forgot to garrison. The deviation from this optimal situation makes the winner.
Why sould i build culture buildings except temple at all? I can be an all-out warmonger and win every time. Yeah, sure, "long term investment, buildings last longer than units" blah blah. But with 20 shield investment in units you can capture/raze a city with 60 shield investment in buildings. ... these new conquered lands are unproductive? Oh my... it's the prevention method: maybe it's not productive to me, but now it's definitely less productive to you.
-bibor
i would have t o say (although i hate them when they affect me) that id like to keep flips in.
however, people saying dont leave a big garrison in your city, means that then its more likely to flip? so you either try and prevent it from flipping, or let it flip without your units... which is a bit of a loose loose situation.
id defo like to see units transported back to the capital, or just left outside of the city, so you can reclaim it easily?
however, people saying dont leave a big garrison in your city, means that then its more likely to flip? so you either try and prevent it from flipping, or let it flip without your units... which is a bit of a loose loose situation.
id defo like to see units transported back to the capital, or just left outside of the city, so you can reclaim it easily?
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Possible further evidence of AI cultural bias:
In SGOTM2, we settled on a tactic of giving a well prepared city to the Russians to build the UN for us. After the UN was complete and I went to take it back (~20turns later) all 12 of Cologne's citizens were Russian.
I do not think it is possible for the human player to assimilate every single citizen of a size 12 city so quickly... especially considering a couple of cultural improvements were built in those turns.
Sure, the Library and University might have been cash-rushed, and the city pumped non-stop for workers... but assimilating that "last" citizen usually takes a little time...
...and there weren't that many german workers around to be captured when I rolled through mother Russia.
Just an observation...
In SGOTM2, we settled on a tactic of giving a well prepared city to the Russians to build the UN for us. After the UN was complete and I went to take it back (~20turns later) all 12 of Cologne's citizens were Russian.
I do not think it is possible for the human player to assimilate every single citizen of a size 12 city so quickly... especially considering a couple of cultural improvements were built in those turns.
Sure, the Library and University might have been cash-rushed, and the city pumped non-stop for workers... but assimilating that "last" citizen usually takes a little time...
...and there weren't that many german workers around to be captured when I rolled through mother Russia.
Just an observation...
smackster
SGOTM
I think if they were just transported back to the capital it would not be so bad, or if the advisor would give an indication of flip chance (so that you would know for sure if you had the right garrison). However, all discussion of changes is a waste of time now, the game came out in 2001 and as stated before, unlikely to see another patch, even for C3C.t3h_m013 said:
There are two main situations where flips come into play.
The first is when you are trying to conquer a distant rival. If you are far from your palace, whatever your culture you are going to have flip problems. The best way is to capture all their cities. In this case you have no time to garrison those cities, just leave one troop there to reduce resistors (and starve them out), and hopefully you have enough reserves coming to the front to take them back if they flip.
The second situation is when you have a city on your border with an AI civ and are not at war, and in this case I think it is legitimate to calculate how many troops are required to reduce the flip chance.
Smackster
samildanach
Necrophile
scoutsout said:Possible further evidence of AI cultural bias:
In SGOTM2, we settled on a tactic of giving a well prepared city to the Russians to build the UN for us. After the UN was complete and I went to take it back (~20turns later) all 12 of Cologne's citizens were Russian.
I do not think it is possible for the human player to assimilate every single citizen of a size 12 city so quickly... especially considering a couple of cultural improvements were built in those turns.
Sure, the Library and University might have been cash-rushed, and the city pumped non-stop for workers... but assimilating that "last" citizen usually takes a little time...
...and there weren't that many german workers around to be captured when I rolled through mother Russia.
Just an observation...
This is right. Freely gifted cities are different from extorted cities. Eg. in the Rise of Rome conquest it is possible to get cities off the Persians and Egyptians in return for offering a military alliance against carthage in the opening turn. The citizens in those cities will be Roman. If those cities had been extorted as part of a peace deal then they would still be native.
leopalas
Chieftain
Just a thought:
Im playing the GOTM 02 for Conquests and had, so far, 22 cultural flips
( yes i counted them cause this was already an issue for me ) when conquering a single AI civ. At some times i just couldnt conquer as fast as they flipped back. Although they were ,efectivelly, completely beaten, the war dragged on for 150 turns or so. Of course this completely ruined my game as i planned for a domination victory 
. I do agree with the concept of cultural flips but as was said before it is absolutelly idiot that a size 8 town could manage to revolt, anihilate 2 armies plus 7 other units and flip when their entire civilization is almost wiped out. Whats more, this produces a series of ilogical behaviours by human players like leaving all the main units outside the conquered cities, or bringing setlers only to provide for a provisional home city placed anywhere just to heal the units. This ruins the game play, you just feel youre allways counter-cheating the AI cheats and not really playing and having fun. A possible solution, not for Civ Conquests since no more patches will be released, but for the GOTM, would be , if possible, to make it impossible for cities under 12 size to flip when occupied by large numbers of military units. Not only this would be much more realistic, but also would make the game more interesting.
Im playing the GOTM 02 for Conquests and had, so far, 22 cultural flips
( yes i counted them cause this was already an issue for me ) when conquering a single AI civ. At some times i just couldnt conquer as fast as they flipped back. Although they were ,efectivelly, completely beaten, the war dragged on for 150 turns or so. Of course this completely ruined my game as i planned for a domination victory . I do agree with the concept of cultural flips but as was said before it is absolutelly idiot that a size 8 town could manage to revolt, anihilate 2 armies plus 7 other units and flip when their entire civilization is almost wiped out. Whats more, this produces a series of ilogical behaviours by human players like leaving all the main units outside the conquered cities, or bringing setlers only to provide for a provisional home city placed anywhere just to heal the units. This ruins the game play, you just feel youre allways counter-cheating the AI cheats and not really playing and having fun. A possible solution, not for Civ Conquests since no more patches will be released, but for the GOTM, would be , if possible, to make it impossible for cities under 12 size to flip when occupied by large numbers of military units. Not only this would be much more realistic, but also would make the game more interesting.
grs
nameless one
If it is true what you say it sounds like: "I didn't build a single military unit and the AI has taken dozens of cities from me. No matter how many settlers I build I still lose cities to the AI. Could you please change GOTM so that no AI is allowed to take more that 2 cities in 1000 years from me?"
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