Ironclads suck

[Pep]

The thing I don't get is how do you justify triremes upgrading to frigates, and both frigates and caravels upgrading to destroyers, yet ironclads can't upgrade to battleships? The only reason I can see is nostalgia from previous civ games that just requires that ironclads suck.

You are right. I remember that ironclads were usable in Civ IV only with the circumnavigation bonus and navigation promotions. I agree in that they should be upgradeable to battleships and able to cross ocean tiles. Maybe an ocean movement or ocean combat penalty should be enough for them.

 

[Lyoncet]

The thing I don't get is how do you justify triremes upgrading to frigates, and both frigates and caravels upgrading to destroyers, yet ironclads can't upgrade to battleships? The only reason I can see is nostalgia from previous civ games that just requires that ironclads suck.

Weren't they OK in Civ 2? Or did you need GLH to get them into ocean tiles?

 

[Uniform Sierra]

I think we should be able to base a melee land unit on sea vessels. Imagine boarding a frigate with musketmen from another frigate

 

[bryanw1995]

Weren't they OK in Civ 2? Or did you need GLH to get them into ocean tiles?

I haven't played civ 2 in a LONG time, I don't remember. I've been pretty bad over the years about playing civ too much, so that by the time the newer version comes out (or smac for that matter), I'm ready to move on and rarely pick up the old version again. Even as much as I liked civ4 + mods, I don't play it very much anymore.

 

[Venger]

Late to this, but I fail to see how Ironclads are supposed to represent dreadnaughts in any way, shape, or form. The fact that they can't enter ocean tiles seems to make it clear they represent the coastal raider ironclads of Civil War time. In that sense, they make some sense. I would make them +1 move, especially since they could move against the wind easier and were not always outsped by sail.

I do think Civ NEEDS a dreadnaught unit - in fact I added one to Civ3. Really liked it and it filled in the naval tree quite well. It also solves the DD vs. Ironclad debate, since a DD would thrash an Ironclad, but be outmatched against a dreadnaught. As someone finally noted, those 5 inchers were primarly for AA - though a tube hit against an dreadnaught would be fatal.

Naval warfare has been the abused stepchild of Civ combat for years...

 

[Hrimfar]

I do think Civ NEEDS a dreadnaught unit ... Naval warfare has been the abused stepchild of Civ combat for years...

I do agree to this, if nothing else, you'd be able to field a unit named Dreadnought which is pretty iconic...

 

[bryanw1995]

I agree that naval combat is the stepchild. The jump from trireme-caravel-frigate is HUGE, ironclad as mentioned is terribad, etc etc etc. I'm playing a large continents as liz now specifically so that I can build up a nice, large naval force just because I never seem to get to do it.

 

[Randall Turner]

Late to this, but I fail to see how Ironclads are supposed to represent dreadnaughts in any way, shape, or form. The fact that they can't enter ocean tiles seems to make it clear they represent the coastal raider ironclads of Civil War time. In that sense, they make some sense. I would make them +1 move, especially since they could move against the wind easier and were not always outsped by sail.

I do think Civ NEEDS a dreadnaught unit - in fact I added one to Civ3. Really liked it and it filled in the naval tree quite well. It also solves the DD vs. Ironclad debate, since a DD would thrash an Ironclad, but be outmatched against a dreadnaught. As someone finally noted, those 5 inchers were primarly for AA - though a tube hit against an dreadnaught would be fatal.

Naval warfare has been the abused stepchild of Civ combat for years...

We have dreadnoughts now. A dreadnought is a battleship. It's a clear ship class that lasted without much change from 1905 to (well, effectively WWII).

The argument that Ironclads currently represent the 1862-65 American coastal monitors is the problem. Ie, the problem is, they do. The picture, however, is of a USS Maine style pre-dreadnought, and that ship class (pre-dreads) is another clear ship class that lasted for 40-50 years. That's the ship we should have spec-wise, instead of a civil war monitor class that had very limited front-line lifetime. (ie, they were obsolete within a decade, while ocean-going ironclads were contemporaries of theirs.)

 

[elprofesor]

Weren't they OK in Civ 2? Or did you need GLH to get them into ocean tiles?

If I recall correctly, they were quite good in Civ 2. Then again, unless you had Leonardo's workshop, you couldn't upgrade units (IIRC, again), so that helped a lot.