Is Alexander OP?

[knappis]

Another way of looking at it I guess is that diplomacy is broken. I don't think he would be too much of a problem if I would uncheck diplo victory but I don't want to do that because it keeps me on my toes (or reduce the number of CS).

Anyway, it should not be so simple to control all CS as it can be with Alex and patronage.

 

[knappis]

one good thing to counter diplomatic victories (or to get one) is going tall and beelining to radio. Build the national intelligence agency and get your 4 spies (at least 2tier) rigging elections or couping those city states. Back this with quests and buy influence with money and AI Alex can barely do anything against it

In my game I ended up in a ≈30+ turn war with him (he didn't want peace ) together with my closest friends and neighbours and when the war ended it was too late to rig enough elections and his influence over CS was very high. During the war I built my defences ... in retrospect I should have been more offensive and maybe had a chance (I doubt it in that game though since I met him too late).

Warning, don't get stuck in a war against Alex unless you plan to take him out since you cannot buy influence over his ally CS during a war.

 

[VainoValkea]

Diplomatic victory and the CS system in general is broken, but it's not because of Alexander only, it's because of those accursed ideology tenets that give tons of free influence. They kept the mechanics unaltered while adding new ways to make more influence than ever before - and as a result, the entire system is wonky.

 

[caiman0815]

In my game I ended up in a ≈30+ turn war with him (he didn't want peace ) together with my closest friends and neighbours and when the war ended it was too late to rig enough elections and his influence over CS was very high. During the war I built my defences ... in retrospect I should have been more offensive and maybe had a chance (I doubt it in that game though since I met him too late).

Warning, don't get stuck in a war against Alex unless you plan to take him out since you cannot buy influence over his ally CS during a war.

sure it is harder if he declares war and all his CS are immune to rigging. but you can coup his CS even during war. the chance isn't high, but if you commit your level 2 spies you've nothing to lose but a few turns without that spy. the national intelligence agency has become one of my favorite national wonders (after national college) in BNW, and with two or three cities it's not too hard to build. furthermore, couping/rigging is not the only thing spies are good for, so options of stealing tech and planting diplomats let me absolutely go for this wonder nearly every game (even if I have more than 3 cities)

 

[knappis]

sure it is harder if he declares war and all his CS are immune to rigging. but you can coup his CS even during war. the chance isn't high, but if you commit your level 2 spies you've nothing to lose but a few turns without that spy. the national intelligence agency has become one of my favorite national wonders (after national college) in BNW, and with two or three cities it's not too hard to build. furthermore, couping/rigging is not the only thing spies are good for, so options of stealing tech and planting diplomats let me absolutely go for this wonder nearly every game (even if I have more than 3 cities)

I haven't built the national intelligence agency yet but I will sure try it. I don't think it is enough to beat Alex CS domination on a large map (20 CSs) but it sure can be a good tool to gain influence over some CSs and get some resolutions passed in the WC.

For now, I am letting Alex back into my game but I am gonna uncheck diplo victory since it seems most broken to me.

 

[TyBoy]

When you translate it into GPT his UA really isn't anything super special. Figure he's got 12 CS allies, half of which are other civs are actually competing for. That makes his UA worth half an influence per turn x 6 city states, or 3 influence per turn. Let's say you can buy 80 influence for 1000 gold (that's what it is around the renaissance without patronage, or probably industrial with patronage). In that scenario, his UA is worth 37.5 gpt. You can tweak the numbers around, but that's the ballpark you're going to be in. At best that's on par with other money friendly civs and it's not particularly versatile. It only translates into money if you're already allying a lot of CSs.

 

[Rhaegar7]

It's hard to make good of his units. I've been trying to spam hoplite/companion-cavalry with pure Honor focus and it does look strong, but mostly for multi - not very good against the AI on higher levels.

His UA is cool. As someone said - few things can be labeled OP, while a lot more can be labeled UP. I do like his UA a lot/

 

[knappis]

When you translate it into GPT his UA really isn't anything super special. Figure he's got 12 CS allies, half of which are other civs are actually competing for. That makes his UA worth half an influence per turn x 6 city states, or 3 influence per turn. Let's say you can buy 80 influence for 1000 gold (that's what it is around the renaissance without patronage, or probably industrial with patronage). In that scenario, his UA is worth 37.5 gpt. You can tweak the numbers around, but that's the ballpark you're going to be in. At best that's on par with other money friendly civs and it's not particularly versatile. It only translates into money if you're already allying a lot of CSs.

I see your point but I think you are missing that not only does his UA make influence degrade with half the speed it also increase with double speed, thus the estimate is more like 75 GPT. But you are also assuming his UA is only making a benefit it for 6 CS but he receives bonuses from all his allies (food, luxuries, units, culture and faith) and I had 18-20 allies most of the later part of the only game I played him which would bring the estimate closer to +200 GPT assuming you always buys 1000 gold of influence (I only did once, and then one 500 and three-four 250 thats it).

Now, that is before the patronage tree that works as a huge force multiplier of those GPT on influence and the return of gold, science, resources and happiness (I always seem to low on happiness). And he will dominate the WC to boot!

 

[pilot00]

Alex is an aggressive jerk and stupid with it. And that is why I do not think he is OP. He in my games almost always has everyone mad at him. He is in wars all the time either by starting or group of AI's will jump on him. As far CS states go, Siam is much more fearful on this front imho.

Sure some games he is ok, but I am much more worried when I see Russia in my games.

That was the case in G&Ks he is more rational now and certainly the best general in the whole game as far as the AI goes. Russian in my games seems to be pretty passive. She never backstabs me anymore and generally she doesnt expand. Dunno what happens with that lady.

I also see a lot of people say that Siam is more powerful than Greece. IMHO as far as AIs are concerned Alex comes top. Under human guidance its a tie but Alex doesn't even need to spend policies on the Patronage tree. His influence if the CS share his religion degrades so slow as to be unnoticeable. If a human Alex digs in the patronage and has the money to back it up the only solution to deal with him is war.

 

[Drewbdu]

I won a diplo victory against Alex on Emperor the other day so I wouldn't say he's OP.

Frankly, I wouldn't say anything in this game is OP. Some things are certainly UP however...

Exactly! I wouldn't necessarily say that certain Civs are underpowered, because everything is situational, but I will say that the fact that there isn't a unit in between the lancer and the anti-tank gun just frustrates me! It's such a long wait with the G&K tech tree!

 

[Halcyan2]

If you dislike Greece/Alexander, you can always screw him over by using Austria/Maria Theresa or Venice/Dandolo. Annex/puppet all of his CS allies, leaving him friendless and his UA useless....

 

[pilot00]

If you dislike Greece/Alexander, you can always screw him over by using Austria/Maria Theresa or Venice/Dandolo. Annex/puppet all of his CS allies, leaving him friendless and his UA useless....

Yep, so he can spend all that gold on building armies to get a domination victory. Last time I tried that I could picture myself yelling at the last people hurrying on the spaceship:

"Hurry the Greeks are coming! Hurry Dammit!Press the launch button,press the launch button!!!!!"

Yeah, and I am a Greek too, so its kinda ironic.

Admittedly it was G&Ks, in BnW he seems quite complacent leaving me alone, even if I am the only one with a capital left....

EDIT: I havent played the old geezer yet, but the round lady needs an alliance with the CSs first so its a bit economically unfeasible to resist him if he gets there first. It can be done in the long run, it just depends how much this long run is

 

[Martinus]

By the way, anyone notice a pattern here?

Alexander. Augustus. Dido. Enrico. Isabella. Napoleon. Ramesses. Whether by wonderspam, insane culture, military prowess or CS hoarding, these guys are coming to ruin your day.

Ladies and gentlemen, give it up for... Team Mediterranean Menace!

I call them Club Med.

 

[Arachnofiend]

It's hard to make good of his units. I've been trying to spam hoplite/companion-cavalry with pure Honor focus and it does look strong, but mostly for multi - not very good against the AI on higher levels.

His UA is cool. As someone said - few things can be labeled OP, while a lot more can be labeled UP. I do like his UA a lot/

The problem with the UA is that the human player never needs it. A human that goes after city-states should always be able to grab up the majority of them if he plays well.

The reason Alex's AI makes his UA seem so powerful, isn't the UA, it's the flavor he has towards city-states. He's one of only three AI that prioritizes allying city-states to the point of being truly competitive with a human player's gold use; even if he didn't have his UA he would still be more of a problem than any of the other civs in regards to diplo simply because he wants to be.

 

[pilot00]

I call them Club Med.

Ok you convinced me, I am going to start a game with all of them as my enemies and see how it goes.

 

[TyBoy]

I see your point but I think you are missing that not only does his UA make influence degrade with half the speed it also increase with double speed, thus the estimate is more like 75 GPT. But you are also assuming his UA is only making a benefit it for 6 CS but he receives bonuses from all his allies (food, luxuries, units, culture and faith) and I had 18-20 allies most of the later part of the only game I played him which would bring the estimate closer to +200 GPT assuming you always buys 1000 gold of influence (I only did once, and then one 500 and three-four 250 thats it).

Now, that is before the patronage tree that works as a huge force multiplier of those GPT on influence and the return of gold, science, resources and happiness (I always seem to low on happiness). And he will dominate the WC to boot!

The double speed increase will only come into play when you're below your resting point, so it won't be a factor once you're allied. It also won't matter if enough time passes after you protect or pick up the patronage policy and before you start gaining influence actively. Even then, that part is just a smallish lump sum unless you're constantly doing things to make the CS mad.

Though you'll get a bonus for all your allies, the AI won't compete with you for all of them. Even without Greece's UA, once you're allied with a city state you'll get enough freebie influence from quests to stay allied. Since 250/60 allied is the same as 80/60 allied, the UA only matters for the CSs that the AI is competing for.

Bonuses to your gold/influence ratio from reformation or patronage actually make the Greek UA worse. By decreasing the gold cost of a point of influence, they decrease the value of a free point of influence. Interestingly, a civ with a gold generation bonus is going to have the upper hand on getting the bonus from those first few city states sooner compared to Greece. So if you're concerned about any multiplying effects of getting some nice happiness or food or whatever bonuses early that's another mark against Greece.

It's harder to say anything about the effect of larger map sizes where there could be 20 CS. Obviously it increases the max potential value if you're allying every city state on the map. Some of the money-friendly civs have bonuses that scale up with map size and some don't.

 

[danieladler]

Alex and Siam are two of the civs that are perma banned from my games.

 

[ToodleElNoodos]

Venice the Vampire scares us city-state swooners.

 

[Yzman]

Does Greece's UA affect the new tenets so instead of freedom you getting 4 influence per trade route you would get 8? ( Or whatever the numbers are, I don't remember off hand)

 

[JustinianIV]

Alex and Siam are two of the civs that are perma banned from my games.

The worst is when you get both of them. You would think they would cancel each other out, but all it means is that they divide up the CS between themselves. Forget trying to win a war as an underdog, the CSs will just harass you and get in your way.

I really wish there was a way of saying which civs you don't want in your game.

PS: I find Siam to be more deadly because they are more diplomatic and hold of on war until later once they have fooled the world into loving them.