Is Atheism a Belief System? (split from the Political Views thread)

[stinkubus]

Proving that religious people are a good thing to have around. My response when people are rude smart asses is usually violent.

Is it really any more rude than making an unsolicited attempt to convert a complete stranger to your religion? Politeness and courtesy are two way streets, imo. I do not go to Kingdom Hall in an attempt to tell the Jehovah's Witnesses how misguided they are, nor do I visit the local LDS temple to tell them how ridiculous and offensive their belief that they are in fact the lost tribes of Israel is. I'm even nice enough not to mention the still on going practice of marrying off their teenage girls to be concubines for grown men.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Is it really any more rude than making an unsolicited attempt to convert a complete stranger to your religion? Politeness and courtesy are two way streets, imo. I do not go to Kingdom Hall in an attempt to tell the Jehovah's Witnesses how misguided they are, nor do I visit the local LDS temple to tell them how ridiculous and offensive their belief that they are in fact the lost tribes of Israel is. I'm even nice enough not to mention the still on going practice of marrying off their teenage girls to be concubines for grown men.

I guess I'm just less proprietary, but people approaching me politely on the street are pretty much free to talk about whatever is on their minds, as far as I'm concerned. I don't get angry about panhandlers, and I don't get automatically offended by proselytizers. Of course I don't have a religion that such an unsolicited attempt would be threatened by. The non-god is extremely jealous though, or so it appears.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Anomalous medical miracles are often ascribed to divine intervention (or, at least, some application of higher power).

And consistently without empirical evidence to back such a conclusion. Sometimes you even get a direct, known mundane cause for recovery later as a bonus too!

Is it really any more rude than making an unsolicited attempt to convert a complete stranger to your religion?

Not particularly, but in most cases I find simply not opening the door for people I don't expect/don't see a compelling reason for opening it to suffice as a measure. It's not ideal to be rude using the justification that someone else is...at least I don't like my standards to be set by others/my mood so freely.

 

[stinkubus]

I guess I'm just less proprietary, but people approaching me politely on the street are pretty much free to talk about whatever is on their minds, as far as I'm concerned. I don't get angry about panhandlers, and I don't get automatically offended by proselytizers. Of course I don't have a religion that such an unsolicited attempt would be threatened by. The non-god is extremely jealous though, or so it appears.

Religion is a personal matter and that makes it off limits to randoms. There is no way to politely attempt to convert a stranger. The act itself is inherently impolite.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Two parallel stories:

For the believer:

Spoiler :

Guy who lives in a flood plain, who serves on the deacon board of his church, hears a knock on his door. Not being an atheist he doesn't gird for war first and just answers the door to find a local deputy, who warns him of an imminent flood and suggests that he evacuate. He says "No need. God will protect me."

Several hours later he has taken refuge on the second floor and is looking out across the flood waters. A guy in a boat sees him and brings the boat right up to his window and offers him a ride out. He sends the boat away saying "No need, God will protect me."

The next morning he is scrawled across the ridge of his roof, with water lapping close on both sides when a helicopter passes over, then circles back to pick him up. "No need," he says. "God will protect me."

Then he drowns.

He gets to heaven and he's angry with God. "I had faith!" he cries. "You were supposed to protect me!"

God looks puzzled for a moment, then says, "I sent you a cop, a boat, and a helicopter. What more do you think I should have done?"

For the atheist:

Spoiler :

Kid is sitting in a classroom and the teacher is describing all the complexities in a frog they are dissecting. His lab partner says "It's like a miracle that this all comes together and works like this." The kid says "Naw, just a coincidence." On the way home from school that day the school bus crashes. It's sliding on its side towards a cliff when it hits a bump and he drops out with the side window he is sitting on. The bus passes over him before it slams back to the pavement and slides off the cliff, leaving him unharmed. He stands up, dusts himself off, and walks away saying "What a coincidence."

That night he has a dream. In the dream a guy in a white suit that looks like Morgan Freeman comes to him and says "I need you to do something for me." When he wakes up, he says "Man that bus crash must be really screwing with my head. Someone else might almost think they dreamed about God there."

Then a guy who looks like Morgan Freeman in a white suit walks through the wall. The kid says " I must be seeing things!" God says "Naw, I 'm just tired of trying to get your attention. I'll get someone else." And the kid's heart stops.

Some people see the parallels, and some don't.

Maybe I'm in the latter group? They are similar, although both stories seem to be for believers, as they both presuppose the existence of God. So I'm not sure why the second one is for atheists. (I'd also say the kid doesn't understand evolution yet, because the complexities of a frog aren't a coincidence, but that's neither here nor there.)

 

[Akka]

Well there needs to be a word used to define the state when a person is currently without a belief on an issue. My issue is relegating God to mere religion. If God created the universe, religion is such an insignificant fraction of the solar system, much less the universe. It may be a 100% human identity. I also think it is hard to separate culture from religion which a lot of humans think they have accomplished. If it turns out God is a scientist, no wonder the frustration with humans boxing God into their own identity of religion.

I'd say that if you don't have any knowledge on god, it's after all some sort of atheism (after all, the word itself means "lack of god"). A "by default" rather than "after thinking about it", but it still shares the absence of gods in the worldview.

What would you call a non-religious person who gets all bent out of shape when religion is discussed? I would say that religious people who get passive agressive perhaps know they are wrong, but have nothing else to turn to for stability because that is all they have had to form their belief system their whole life. That and people in general hate being wrong about what they know.

I'd call her someone who is pretty sensitive to the subject of religion
Not sure there is a word for that - after all, there is plenty of reason to be sensitive for any subject, and not all related to the actual subject.
Kinda agree with the rest - the agressivity is kind of a dead giveaway.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I guess I'm just less proprietary, but people approaching me politely on the street are pretty much free to talk about whatever is on their minds, as far as I'm concerned. I don't get angry about panhandlers, and I don't get automatically offended by proselytizers.

Yeah, I'm the same way. Around here we see LDS, Hare Krishnas, and Jehovah's Witnesses quite commonly. I used to see Falun Gong a lot, but not so much lately. Some days, I'd rather talk to them than the salespeople who cold-call my office phone every dang day.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Religion is a personal matter and that makes it off limits to randoms. There is no way to politely attempt to convert a stranger. The act itself is inherently impolite.

The idea that they are "attempting to convert a stranger" is entirely contained in your own head. I'm no big fan of proselytizing myself, but if someone wants to tell me about their beliefs conversationally I'm happy for the conversation. I think the people who want to stand in lines with their heads silently locked in their own little world are less polite than pretty much anyone who is willing to converse about pretty much anything. Last night in the grocery store some random guy and I had a really interesting conversation about the end days and deaths of our various parents. I'd say that was as much or more a "personal matter" as religion.

 

[Arakhor]

And consistently without empirical evidence to back such a conclusion. Sometimes you even get a direct, known mundane cause for recovery later as a bonus too!

Depending on how you define "empirical", I suppose. These stories only become news if something inexplicable has happened, such as a patient's Parkinson's abruptly reversing itself or people making entirely unexpected recoveries from situations that could never have been expected. These things happen more often than some might care to admit, so it's not difficult to see the hand of the Divine in such occasions, if you were inclined to do so.

 

[stinkubus]

LOL if you don't understand how it's rude and off putting to start discussing the looming Armageddon with a complete stranger then we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Another big LOL if you think that the purpose of the Witnesses or LDS coming to your home is anything other than an attempt to convert you. They will tell you as much themselves!

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Yeah, I'm the same way. Around here we see LDS, Hare Krishnas, and Jehovah's Witnesses quite commonly. I used to see Falun Gong a lot, but not so much lately. Some days, I'd rather talk to them than the salespeople who cold-call my office phone every dang day.

Our most common religious door knockers represent a church which is lead by a guy who uses the pulpit as a political platform and is a tight member of the corrupt gang of cronies who run the adjacent city as a private fief and piggy-bank. They are sent out door knocking to bring people to the church for political indoctrination more than anything else, IMO, but that's the fault of the man sending them, not their faith.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Depending on how you define "empirical", I suppose. These stories only become news if something inexplicable has happened, such as a patient's Parkinson's abruptly reversing itself or people making entirely unexpected recoveries from situations that could never have been expected. These things happen more often than some might care to admit, so it's not difficult to see the hand of the Divine in such occasions, if you were inclined to do so.

I understand how people make such conclusions, but it's not clear why we should expect unexplained occurrences in medicine today to be different from every other unexplained event in historical science. Things that were previously "inexplicable" turned into concepts like "cellular biology", "electricity", "pharmacology", and "physics"...all of which were originally "explained" by divine influence at one point or another.

Something presently unknown does not mean it is necessarily "inexplicable", and something that actually is theoretically inexplicable right now (say a distance measure smaller than Planck length) still doesn't imply the divine any more than it implies unicorns.

 

[stinkubus]

Indeed. Godel's Incompleteness Theorem actually informs us that there is an infinite amount of truth that humans have no hope of deducing. The existence of the inexplicable is to be expected.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

LOL if you don't understand how it's rude and off putting to start discussing the looming Armageddon with a complete stranger then we are going to have to agree to disagree.

"Don't understand how it's rude" is another way of saying "not offended by." Why do I have to be as easily offended as you? Given my history in regards to how I react when I'm offended it's probably best that I'm not easily offended. Given the state of the world, filled with people brimming with anger over their lifetime of perceived slights maybe more like me, less like you would be good for us all.

Another big LOL if you think that the purpose of the Witnesses or LDS coming to your home is anything other than an attempt to convert you. They will tell you as much themselves!

Just like the "salesman" "selling" solar powered electrical systems, they really aren't there to convert you, even if they think they are. They are just cold callers providing a point of contact. They no more have their religion in their back pocket than the other guy has five square meters of solar panels in his.

 

[Arakhor]

I understand how people make such conclusions, but it's not clear why we should expect unexplained occurrences in medicine today to be different from every other unexplained event in historical science. Things that were previously "inexplicable" turned into concepts like "cellular biology", "electricity", "pharmacology", and "physics"...all of which were originally "explained" by divine influence at one point or another.

Something presently unknown does not mean it is necessarily "inexplicable", and something that actually is theoretically inexplicable right now (say a distance measure smaller than Planck length) still doesn't imply the divine any more than it implies unicorns.

Well, yes, but then you get into the situation that there is likely no test for the supernatural that you could accept that someone else would not dismiss. It's also the nature of humans to seek answers in the unknowable and each person's tolerance for such knowledge is different.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Well, yes, but then you get into the situation that there is likely no test for the supernatural that you could accept that someone else would not dismiss. It's also the nature of humans to seek answers in the unknowable and each person's tolerance for such knowledge is different.

The interesting thing I'm getting from this conversation is how many people are committed to the idea that in order for them to believe something they have to be able to prove it to others. Maybe it's just me, but that strikes me as so strange.

 

[stinkubus]

They don't have to be able to prove it to others in order to believe it themselves. They need to be able to prove it to others in order to justify knocking on my goddamn door!

 

[Timsup2nothin]

They don't have to be able to prove it to others in order to believe it themselves. They need to be able to prove it to others in order to justify knocking on my goddamn door!

I really wish I knew where your door was. I sell fencing, among other things, and would love to offer you a complete enclosure system so people couldn't even GET TO your door, much less knock on it. I would show up every day until you bought my product to protect yourself from me.

 

[AmazonQueen]

The interesting thing I'm getting from this conversation is how many people are committed to the idea that in order for them to believe something they have to be able to prove it to others. Maybe it's just me, but that strikes me as so strange.

They can believe anything they want but if they are going to claim to me its true or argue for its inclusion in children's education or want to base laws on it I'd like proof, not just it says so in the Bible or Koran.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

They can believe anything they want but if they are going to claim to me its true or argue for its inclusion in children's education or want to base laws on it I'd like proof, not just it says so in the Bible or Koran.

No argument from me there, though maybe some room for exploration in the area of children's education. You might also note that the axe I am constantly grinding with the gnostic atheists is about their smug demand for acknowledgement that they have "the truth" on their side.