Is Atheism a Belief System? (split from the Political Views thread)

[Traitorfish]

My point precisely.

If atheism is a belief system then saying: "I don't watch sports dude" makes you a sports fan.

I mean, there are absolutely guys out there who build an identity around Not Watching Sports.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Directly on topic, this is what I get when I google "belief system":

a set of principles or tenets which together form the basis of a religion, philosophy, or moral code.

and for "atheism":

disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

It's not clear to me how disbelief/lack of belief in one particular thing, by itself, can constitute a "set of principles". It certainly does not form the basis of religion, and it does not let us reliably predict someone's philosophy or moral code. That's why my first answer in this thread was "it is not a belief system, it is a belief".

 

[Hrothbern]

For some christians it is more a kinda tribalism, and anything else a threat.... as if anything else is trying to prosetelyze them and their children... threatening their tribe.
The people that came to the US on the Mayflower fled from the UK to Amsterdam and moved from there to Leiden nearby. Religious freedom was quite ok. But they did not like that their children played with Dutch children that were in general raised in a far more tolerant way towards everything. Leiden was also too urban. So they left on the Mayflower to the US to have their own rural and pure religion bubble.

Tribalism can take over the content of being a christian in the normal religious meaning

It was the first time I had been to Northern Ireland since my friend, Bridie, wet herself when a British soldier pointed a gun at her. A bunch of 10-year-olds on a school trip, our bus was searched at the border.
Five years after the Good Friday Agreement (GFA), I was in Belfast again for work. This time there was no border, no indignity and no fear. Hearing my Dublin accent, a man in his sixties asked, “Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
“Neither, I’m atheist!” I said triumphantly.
“Yes, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?”
Religion in Northern Ireland is like the Hotel California, I was told. You can check out, but you can never leave.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...nd-troubles-violence-ira-border-a8297406.html

 

[EgonSpengler]

Directly on topic, this is what I get when I google "belief system":

a set of principles or tenets which together form the basis of a religion, philosophy, or moral code.

and for "atheism":

disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

It's not clear to me how disbelief/lack of belief in one particular thing, by itself, can constitute a "set of principles". It certainly does not form the basis of religion, and it does not let us reliably predict someone's philosophy or moral code. That's why my first answer in this thread was "it is not a belief system, it is a belief".

I was just going to post something similar. A "belief system" means that various aspects of your life or behavior are strongly informed or guided by it, whatever it is. I think someone earlier in the thread (sorry, I forget who it was) pointed out that religious folk seem to view atheism as a "belief system" because they can't imagine someone not having a belief system of some sort. There was an episode of one of Morgan Spurlock's shows in which a religious man said as much, with surprising forthrightness (it surprised me, at any rate). I'm paraphrasing, but I think he said that he didn't trust someone who didn't have a belief system that informed their morality - that if you weren't religious, you must be amoral, because how else could you know what was right? Another surprising moment of candor from a religious person came in that film about Christopher Hitchens and his minister friend on their speaking tour (here, Hitchens demonstrated his lack of animosity towards people of faith who were themselves benign and tolerant - he was close friends with this guy, whose name I forget). Towards the end of the film, the minister admitted that he chose to believe in God because the idea of a universe without God frightened him, and he just didn't want to live in that universe (again, I'm paraphrasing).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I know such a person in real life. He left one of our group chats when we were debating absolute vs subjective morality. It was shortly after the time I requested to show/define "good" or "evil" without the context of something (if you're using context, subjective morality can also define these). Not an example of an "evil action", but just pure evil that is necessarily evil the same way a rock is necessarily a rock based on our understanding of empirical reality and agreed-upon basis for "rock" vs "not rock". Shortly after that request I got called out as an atheist and he left. I was the only one debating the subjective morality stance in that chat and the other 3+ people participating in that discussion stayed, so it's not like he was getting dogpiled. I think it just shook the worldview too much.

 

[Estebonrober]

I think I can sum up this thread in a paragraph.

There are many flavors of atheism and agnosticism as there are in many religious beliefs, but atheism generally isn't a belief system itself. Atheists come off as arrogant and smug quite often which triggers a lot of people. Meh did it in two sentences.

As a practicing (terrible) catholic atheists never bother me, southern baptists? yea they worry me greatly.

 

[warpus]

I mean, there are absolutely guys out there who build an identity around Not Watching Sports.

But we don't call them "sports fans" and we don't call "a lack of a team you support" a team

 

[Akka]

I was thinking about people's avid definition of belief.

Think about these statements, they're all true. But some of them are positive beliefs and some of them are lack of beliefs due to lack of evidence.

I don't believe that Napoleon ate steak for his 12th birthday
I don't believe that Napoleon ate zebra for his 12th birthday
I don't believe that Napoleon ate McDonalds for his 12th birthday


On the first, I don't doubt it. I just don't believe it. It's information I don't have, and it's information I'll never have
The second seems possible, just unlikely
The third violates my internal paradigm

If some bloke came up to me and insisted that he had personal information about the factness of Napoleon's birthday meal being one of those three, based on a vision, it would still not wobble my lack of belief. I could be swayed into believing any of the three, but the evidence hurdle would be higher for some than for others.

Funny, it reminds me of what someone said in the first page ( ) :

All this "atheism" and "belief" is just an attempt at muddying the water by deliberately playing on the two nuances of what "belief" means, one being closer to "what one think" ("I believe she said it differently") and the other being about "faith" ("I believe in God").

You just gave a good example : most atheists are about the second or third cases ("the informations I gathered through my life make me think that gods don't exist"), while their position is typically cast as if it were the first ("I'm going to claim that gods don't exist out of faith").

Nearly every decent-sized population has outliers, so I would expect at least a few people like that.

Yeah, but the point is the difference between the claimed prevalence of such outliers and their real existence. The whole initial point of this discussion WAS about claiming that atheism is just a religion worshipping the absence of gods.

I think I can sum up this thread in a paragraph.

There are many flavors of atheism and agnosticism as there are in many religious beliefs, but atheism generally isn't a belief system itself. Atheists come off as arrogant and smug quite often which triggers a lot of people. Meh did it in two sentences.

With the caveat that simply stating facts or defining atheism is sufficient to be coming off as smug and arrogant. Seems to me that the real problem is more what EgonSpengler described, with religious people becoming very defensive (or passive-agressive) when their worldview is challenged.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Next time you a Mormon or JW comes a knockin' (we have both in my neck of the woods) please use the following script:

"I'm sorry, but I don't have time to chat right now. Please provide me your home address. I'll stop by when it's convenient, and you can tell me all about it."

What do you recommend if they say "Sure" and give you an address?

Seems to me that the real problem is more what EgonSpengler described, with religious people becoming very defensive (or passive-agressive) when their worldview is challenged.

Yeah, there are some religious people who act like most atheists.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

What do you recommend if they say "Sure" and give you an address?

It that case would probably never become convenient.

 

[Estebonrober]

With the caveat that simply stating facts or defining atheism is sufficient to be coming off as smug and arrogant. Seems to me that the real problem is more what EgonSpengler described, with religious people becoming very defensive (or passive-agressive) when their worldview is challenged.

Hmm, well I didn't mean to come off as smug and arrogant, but I guess I could see how summing up 19? pages of text in two sentences could come off that way. Atheists don't threaten anyone's worldview generally. I'm not sure we have a good religious person in this discussion honestly. At least not the type of religious person who would be concerned with Atheists.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Evidence of direct divine intervention, similar to the evidence we have for gravity or magnetism.

No mere wrinkled shirts for you, eh?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

No mere wrinkled shirts for you, eh?

Probably not, but this is necessarily an estimate.

 

[Arakhor]

Anomalous medical miracles are often ascribed to divine intervention (or, at least, some application of higher power).

 

[Akka]

Yeah, there are some religious people who act like most atheists.

Not that you needed to do it again, but thanks for proving the point.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Two parallel stories:

For the believer:

Spoiler :

Guy who lives in a flood plain, who serves on the deacon board of his church, hears a knock on his door. Not being an atheist he doesn't gird for war first and just answers the door to find a local deputy, who warns him of an imminent flood and suggests that he evacuate. He says "No need. God will protect me."

Several hours later he has taken refuge on the second floor and is looking out across the flood waters. A guy in a boat sees him and brings the boat right up to his window and offers him a ride out. He sends the boat away saying "No need, God will protect me."

The next morning he is scrawled across the ridge of his roof, with water lapping close on both sides when a helicopter passes over, then circles back to pick him up. "No need," he says. "God will protect me."

Then he drowns.

He gets to heaven and he's angry with God. "I had faith!" he cries. "You were supposed to protect me!"

God looks puzzled for a moment, then says, "I sent you a cop, a boat, and a helicopter. What more do you think I should have done?"

For the atheist:

Spoiler :

Kid is sitting in a classroom and the teacher is describing all the complexities in a frog they are dissecting. His lab partner says "It's like a miracle that this all comes together and works like this." The kid says "Naw, just a coincidence." On the way home from school that day the school bus crashes. It's sliding on its side towards a cliff when it hits a bump and he drops out with the side window he is sitting on. The bus passes over him before it slams back to the pavement and slides off the cliff, leaving him unharmed. He stands up, dusts himself off, and walks away saying "What a coincidence."

That night he has a dream. In the dream a guy in a white suit that looks like Morgan Freeman comes to him and says "I need you to do something for me." When he wakes up, he says "Man that bus crash must be really screwing with my head. Someone else might almost think they dreamed about God there."

Then a guy who looks like Morgan Freeman in a white suit walks through the wall. The kid says " I must be seeing things!" God says "Naw, I 'm just tired of trying to get your attention. I'll get someone else." And the kid's heart stops.

Some people see the parallels, and some don't.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Not that you needed to do it again, but thanks for proving the point.

Funny that you think my beliefs have been challenged here...in a thread about the belief system of atheists.

 

[stinkubus]

What do you recommend if they say "Sure" and give you an address?

I've used the line I provided on at least five occasions, and I've never had anyone give me their address. Awkward laughter followed by an attempt to repeat the sales pitch is the most common response.

It that case would probably never become convenient.

LDO.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I've used the line I provided on at least five occasions, and I've never had anyone give me their address. Awkward laughter followed by an attempt to repeat the sales pitch is the most common response.

Proving that religious people are a good thing to have around. My response when people are rude smart asses is usually violent.

 

[timtofly]

The fact that the overwhelming majority of people tend to follow the religion they were taught tend to imply that they are acquired, not innate.

So lack of religion would be the "default" state (I'll let you chose if "atheism" is the right word, this thread seems to indicate that people will put whatever they fancy in the word anyway).

Well there needs to be a word used to define the state when a person is currently without a belief on an issue. My issue is relegating God to mere religion. If God created the universe, religion is such an insignificant fraction of the solar system, much less the universe. It may be a 100% human identity. I also think it is hard to separate culture from religion which a lot of humans think they have accomplished. If it turns out God is a scientist, no wonder the frustration with humans boxing God into their own identity of religion.

Funny, it reminds me of what someone said in the first page ( ) :

All this "atheism" and "belief" is just an attempt at muddying the water by deliberately playing on the two nuances of what "belief" means, one being closer to "what one think" ("I believe she said it differently") and the other being about "faith" ("I believe in God").

You just gave a good example : most atheists are about the second or third cases ("the informations I gathered through my life make me think that gods don't exist"), while their position is typically cast as if it were the first ("I'm going to claim that gods don't exist out of faith").


Yeah, but the point is the difference between the claimed prevalence of such outliers and their real existence. The whole initial point of this discussion WAS about claiming that atheism is just a religion worshipping the absence of gods.


With the caveat that simply stating facts or defining atheism is sufficient to be coming off as smug and arrogant. Seems to me that the real problem is more what EgonSpengler described, with religious people becoming very defensive (or passive-agressive) when their worldview is challenged.

What would you call a non-religious person who gets all bent out of shape when religion is discussed? I would say that religious people who get passive agressive perhaps know they are wrong, but have nothing else to turn to for stability because that is all they have had to form their belief system their whole life. That and people in general hate being wrong about what they know.