Is Babylon overpowered?

[spider1]

That would make sense if Egypt got 20% Production toward Wonders and a free GE upon researching Masonry (same cost as Writing). To rush Wonders as Egypt you also give up early production speed on Settlers from the Liberty tree and your capital is gimped pretty significantly during the early game. Not saying Babylon is overpowered but they're not forced to rush anything and they don't need to deviate from the standard path of tech/policy/city advancement. Science is also more valuable than Productivity because buildings that boost it come later on in the tech tree and have decent upkeep costs.

Don't get me wrong, I really love Babylon. It encourages a defensive play style with its UB and focus on technology, which I prefer over warmongering, and I hate how flimsy normal Archers are so their UU is wonderful as well. My only gripe was when I tried rushing Stonehenge -> Great Library on Babylon. Combined with Research Agreements, it didn't take long until I was burning through techs so quickly that I could just randomly click ones without worrying about it. I agree though that Babylon doesn't need a nerf, GS' should just give a scaling amount of Science rather than a completely free tech.
/2c

When I'm playing Babylon I usually plant the GS instead of getting the free tech. Getting archers and masonry early helps me play my defensive game. I don't usually build a whole lot of wonders, instead I try and develop the cities with buildings and the right amount of military units to defend myself. Unlike others on this board, I just don't seem to have very good luck with making friends with the AI civs.

And in a weird way, it's almost just as much fun watching them try to attack me so I can just mow them down. That strategy can backfire though, once I had three civs DOW'ing me constantly and it was rough going the whole game.

Edit to add: Also, I'm usually playing with the Echos of Ages mod, and in that mod you can't use a GS for a free tech, so you either plant him or start a golden age which is a totaly complete waste of a GS.

 

[donhenriko]

When playing single player, fine, they are not OP. Especially if players want to beat the game on deity.

But when playing MP (which is the only thing I do) where all players are on the same skill level, it's impossible to include either Babylon or Korea in the game without ruining it. This is a fact.

 

[Mesix]

When playing single player, fine, they are not OP. Especially if players want to beat the game on deity.

But when playing MP (which is the only thing I do) where all players are on the same skill level, it's impossible to include either Babylon or Korea in the game without ruining it. This is a fact.

If playing as Babylon makes the game easier (i.e. wanting to beat the game on deity level), then it is by definition overpowered. In a balanced game, civilizations would have equal ability to compete at all levels of the game. Whether the game designers should or should not intervene to rebalance the game is another discussion all together.

 

[tetley]

I think the marketing move is to make DLC slightly more powerful. Makes people want to buy it. Which is silly, because all you have to do is a mod, and that's free.

 

[aatami]

If playing as Babylon makes the game easier (i.e. wanting to beat the game on deity level), then it is by definition overpowered. In a balanced game, civilizations would have equal ability to compete at all levels of the game. Whether the game designers should or should not intervene to rebalance the game is another discussion all together.

One thing to note, though, is that this can also be the fault of the AI design, and not a civ's unique attributes.

 

[bhavv]

If playing as Babylon makes the game easier (i.e. wanting to beat the game on deity level), then it is by definition overpowered. In a balanced game, civilizations would have equal ability to compete at all levels of the game. Whether the game designers should or should not intervene to rebalance the game is another discussion all together.

I can beat the game 2000 years faster with Greece than Babylon, so does that mean Greece is hugely overpowered then?

Each civs uniques favor different victories, if Babylon are wiped before they can even reach education, they aren't really overpowered at all are they?

 

[bhavv]

If playing as Babylon makes the game easier (i.e. wanting to beat the game on deity level), then it is by definition overpowered. In a balanced game, civilizations would have equal ability to compete at all levels of the game. Whether the game designers should or should not intervene to rebalance the game is another discussion all together.

All civilizations do have an equal chance to compete by using their civ specific bonuses. Science race isn't the only victory condition in the game.

I had no problem beating the game on Immortal with Greece and Siam in my last two games, other than learning to set up a strong defends. I much prefer Siams UA to Babylon and find the massive food and culture boost to be far more powerful than a few extra great scientists, plus you can legalism abuse to build Wats which gives a huge advantange once you reach education.

I personally rate the civs in this order for my gamestyle:

Korea, Inca, Egypt, Siam, Babylon.

 

[Gucumatz]

All civilizations do have an equal chance to compete by using their civ specific bonuses. Science race isn't the only victory condition in the game.

I had no problem beating the game on Immortal with Greece and Siam in my last two games, other than learning to set up a strong defends. I much prefer Siams UA to Babylon and find the massive food and culture boost to be far more powerful than a few extra great scientists, plus you can legalism abuse to build Wats which gives a huge advantange once you reach education.

I personally rate the civs in this order for my gamestyle:

Korea, Inca, Egypt, Siam, Babylon.

Still; This Deity game I am playing right now as the Inca I am winning (having taken out 4 out of 7 of the enemy Caps by the year 1500 something)

But with Babylon I can neglect a lot of things and be a good 40% further then I am wiht the Inca if I had been dealt same hand int his current game. And thats on singleplayer.

Science victory isn't the only thing; but an Early Academy + A Constant Flow of Great Scientists will help for any victory or any scenario odds are more than any of the other UAs. Its flexible; you could go many victory paths to achieve victory with the boosted Science.

 

[bhavv]

If you get the right map with Inca (try highlands or earth), you shouldn't find them to be weaker than any other Civ. Your cities grow faster with good production, and you earn lot more GPT from the UA. You can also set up any civ to gain a constant flow of GSs, Babylon just get theirs 50% faster.

 

[Somohexual]

When I'm playing Babylon I usually plant the GS instead of getting the free tech. Getting archers and masonry early helps me play my defensive game. I don't usually build a whole lot of wonders, instead I try and develop the cities with buildings and the right amount of military units to defend myself. Unlike others on this board, I just don't seem to have very good luck with making friends with the AI civs.

And in a weird way, it's almost just as much fun watching them try to attack me so I can just mow them down. That strategy can backfire though, once I had three civs DOW'ing me constantly and it was rough going the whole game.

Edit to add: Also, I'm usually playing with the Echos of Ages mod, and in that mod you can't use a GS for a free tech, so you either plant him or start a golden age which is a totaly complete waste of a GS.

Oh, yeah I didn't mean GS' giving a free tech was the only thing that made Babylon feel a little too strong. It's the combination of a VERY early Academy, followed by another two or three, with a free tech. You're getting more Science now, more Science per turn, and more Science late game; that really adds up.

Imo at least.

 

[Kaosprophet]

Each civs uniques favor different victories, if Babylon are wiped before they can even reach education, they aren't really overpowered at all are they?

This is the civ with the most powerful archer* for their UU and a beefed up wall for their UB. If Babylon gets wiped early, the player screwed up. And if Babylon doesn't get wiped early, they get to leverage massive scientific advantages for the mid and late game.

Korea is a close second, but is much more vulnerable until Hwacha come online. And their UA is even more dependant on making it through the longer game.

*edit: I suppose there's some room for debate on that one, with slingers or egypt's war chariots competing. But the Bowman is still a top-notch early unit for either rushing or defending.

 

[headcase]

Yeah, for defense, the Bowman is good.

If GSs were less powerful, that'd be cool, but it's kind of annoying for any civ to have an advantage in beakers (Babylon and Korea). Everyone wants beakers. Sure, other UAs can be leveraged into beakers, but just directly getting beakers (or GSs) in a UA, I don't like.

If Babylon needs a science boost, there are ways to do it in a less direct manner.

For example, science buildings carry less maintenance, or get a small amount of culture when completing a tech.