[GS] Is chopping overflow overcorrected?

[Boyan_Sun]

- the chop production (Y)
- the chop production modifier (A)

For a chop of 100 production and a modifier of 100% you have:
- 100 base production
- 100 bonus production

When you chop into something

And not just chop, city production also follow this. When city production goes high, it will waste many from a high modifier.

 

[Victoria]

All trees are equal.

Some trees are more equal than others.

Don't chop me - that redwood over there is WAY more equal than I am!

(I'll see myself out.)

Btw, that’s the lyrics from a Canadian rock group of some renown.
I used it on a Maori Marae once and became a celebrity for a day.

 

[Blue Odin]

To me, it looks like they are just subtracting the modified production from overflow instead of taking the a ratio (i.e. dividing by 150%). For example, if you have a +50% modifier, a chop value of 30 and are building something with 30 production remaining, you chop for 45 (chop of 30 plus modified production of 15) and have a overflow of 15 but then they subtract the modified production (15) from it to give you 0 overflow instead of dividing it by the modifier (15/1.5 = 10). Is this a correct understanding, or am I missing something?

 

[Wandering_Dandelion]

I think there is a little mistake.
At least it was baffling me:

Sorry, I'll correct it.

 

[Boyan_Sun]

To me, it looks like they are just subtracting the modified production from overflow instead of taking the a ratio (i.e. dividing by 150%). For example, if you have a +50% modifier, a chop value of 30 and are building something with 30 production remaining, you chop for 45 (chop of 30 plus modified production of 15) and have a overflow of 15 but then they subtract the modified production (15) from it to give you 0 overflow instead of dividing it by the modifier (15/1.5 = 10). Is this a correct understanding, or am I missing something?

You are correct, this is the most likely implementation of this mechanism.

 

[Wandering_Dandelion]

To me, it looks like they are just subtracting the modified production from overflow instead of taking the a ratio (i.e. dividing by 150%). For example, if you have a +50% modifier, a chop value of 30 and are building something with 30 production remaining, you chop for 45 (chop of 30 plus modified production of 15) and have a overflow of 15 but then they subtract the modified production (15) from it to give you 0 overflow instead of dividing it by the modifier (15/1.5 = 10). Is this a correct understanding, or am I missing something?

That's right, and you can see it's as same as you chop it without policy card.

 

[Bei1052]

This is a "problem" that didn't need to be "fixed", to be perfectly honest.

 

[BTSeven7]

So it’s kind of like this:

50 chop with 50% specialized bonus. Potential production 75.

Building has 50 or less = useless policy but since you are only getting a base chop you will get overflow.

Building has 51-75 = You got there but whatever is left you lost bc you got there with bonus.

Building has 75+ = You get the full chop and bonus

So bonuses are only good toward that type of unit/building. Period.

So in a way if you don’t want to lose production on a chop you are better off letting that excess go into an additional ship or archer or whatever and you can come back to it later to finish if you need to build something else but planning to have a second unit ready for the overflow might be a good idea.

 

[Boyan_Sun]

The next question, does overflow have policy cards applied to it? So in the warrior example, after the 2nd chop, you have 22.5 carryover. If you slot another warrior next, will he end up with 22 or 33 production in him after that turn?

Actually 33.75, overflow can apply new bonus now, see my first post tip 2.

@UWHabs a bit ugly but
View attachment 517850
slotting second warrior
View attachment 517854
slotting 3rd warrior
View attachment 517855
... so the third warrior indicates 4 turns of 7.3 production to complete indicating 22.5 rather than 33

chop1: basic = 25, result 37.5
chop2: basic = 25, result 2.5(finish) + 22.5(overflow), actually need 1 more turn ( (22.5+7.3)*1.5 ), this is said to be a display bug, if you click the next turn button, you will find that the warrior directly finished.
chop3: basic = 22.5+25 = 47.5, result 40(finish) + 7.5(overflow), actually need 3 more turn ( (7.5+7.3)*1.5, 7.3*1.5, 7.3*1.5 ), display bug too.

 

[Kamino]

I don't understand how a problem solved in Civ4 15 years ago is still a problem in Civ6...

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I don't understand how a problem solved in Civ4 15 years ago is still a problem in Civ6...

Mostly because policies were implemented as a boost to production instead of a reduction to costs. An innocent decision that caused significant extra complexity to avoid unintended consequences.

 

[pgm123]

So it’s kind of like this:

50 chop with 50% specialized bonus. Potential production 75.

Building has 50 or less = useless policy but since you are only getting a base chop you will get overflow.

Building has 51-75 = You got there but whatever is left you lost bc you got there with bonus.

Building has 75+ = You get the full chop and bonus

So bonuses are only good toward that type of unit/building. Period.

So in a way if you don’t want to lose production on a chop you are better off letting that excess go into an additional ship or archer or whatever and you can come back to it later to finish if you need to build something else but planning to have a second unit ready for the overflow might be a good idea.

This makes sense. I would say that's not a bad way to deal with it.

Then again, I was trained on older Civ games where overflow waste was to be expected. I don't chop unless it is to rush a specific item, typically a building or wonder. If I chop with a modifier, it will be the wonder modifier. Things could be worse.

 

[Wandering_Dandelion]

Mostly because policies were implemented as a boost to production instead of a reduction to costs. An innocent decision that caused significant extra complexity to avoid unintended consequences.

It is also boost production in CIV4, and the bonus is as much as it in CIV6 (like protective provides +100% production when build wall). I really don't like to claim too much, but... programmers of CIV6 made so many stupid mistakes that they looks like a group of beginners...

 

[UWHabs]

This makes sense. I would say that's not a bad way to deal with it.

Then again, I was trained on older Civ games where overflow waste was to be expected. I don't chop unless it is to rush a specific item, typically a building or wonder. If I chop with a modifier, it will be the wonder modifier. Things could be worse.

Yes, at least with the current system, you're not able to use the shipbuilding card to complete a wonder, or having the incredibly weird issues where if walls cost 80 and your chop gives 100, then using Limes will actually give you an extra production boost to the next thing you build.

It does suck because if you want to optimize chop yields, you have to time things exactly. And at least if overflow is having policy cards applied to it, I can live with that. Basically it means that if you want a policy card to apply to the chop, you need to chop as early in production as possible.

 

[man_in_finance]

To me, it looks like they are just subtracting the modified production from overflow instead of taking the a ratio (i.e. dividing by 150%). For example, if you have a +50% modifier, a chop value of 30 and are building something with 30 production remaining, you chop for 45 (chop of 30 plus modified production of 15) and have a overflow of 15 but then they subtract the modified production (15) from it to give you 0 overflow instead of dividing it by the modifier (15/1.5 = 10). Is this a correct understanding, or am I missing something?

I have read all the formulae, but like you agree this can be expressed more simply, in terms of processing order:

In Vanilla and R&F the flow was like this:

Base Prod. / Chop --> Multiply by Modifiers --> Total Prod. --> Residual on Prod. Complete --> Overflow

In Gathering Storm the programming flow is more like this:

Base Prod / Chop --> Residual on Prod. Complete --> Overflow (without bonus)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . (or)--> Production not complete --> Add Bonus Production --> Never Overflow

 

[Dexter25]

Let us complicate the situation a little bit more.

Define 5 variables
- the production needed to complete the project (X)
- the city-per-turn production (Y)
- the production modifier bonus (A). So Y is the basic production part, A*Y is the bonus production part.
- the overflow from previous production (O)
- the chop value (C)
- The Magnus modifier 0.5

1. Do I understand right the chop with Magnus and Agoge will result in=
30*(1+0.5 (Magnus)) * 0.5 (agoge) = 67.5?

2. Do I understand right that TOTAL city production per turn = (O+Y) + (O+Y)*A
If we chop then TOTAL per turn I get = (O+Y) + (O+Y)*A + C*1.5 + C*1.5*A
So X is compared with (O+Y). If it is not enough, then
X compared with (O+Y) + (O+Y)*A. If it is not enough, then
X compared with (O+Y) + (O+Y)*A + C*1.5. If it is not enough, then
X compared with (O+Y) + (O+Y)*A + C*1.5 + C*1.5*A.

3. If it is right, then following conclusion (to max chop*bonuses) can be made:
A. chop at the beginning of production heavy projects (e.g. wonders). You can apply bonus card to max the effect. Magnus will help to max the effect
B. chop at the end of non-modifiable production projects (granary) and then choose production with bonus card applied (e.g. archer with agoge). Magnus will help, since his amplifier is added to the base
C. multiple chopping with Magnus will help only at the beginning of production heavy projects

 

[Ansive]

No. Magnus bonus is applied to the base remove feature yield (you can see that in the UI). This means before any policies. You don't lose this bonus.

 

[Dexter25]

No. Magnus bonus is applied to the base remove feature yield (you can see that in the UI). This means before any policies. You don't lose this bonus.

Thank you. Edited to precise

 

[TheMeInTeam]

For all the things that have changed since Civ 4, apparently struggling to ever get overflow implemented correctly isn't one of them .

Maybe they'll patch it this time and not leave it forever like with BTS 3.19. Let's hope.

 

[Tabarnak]

So generally, for chops with bonuses, we have to do it early in the build. I usually use a specific card for a short time but ''en masse''.