Is Civ IV a Racist and Immoral Game? HA!

[r_rolo1]

^^Fair enough... but sometimes they could do a far better job. have a look at the link I posted.... it is supposed to be a strategy guide and the guy looks that played only 1 game before making it.... A little lacking, right? Atleast , if he even had followed Civfanatics and Apolyton links and checked the war room articles and simply copy-pasted , he would had made a far better job

 

[Lockesdonkey]

The stars and stripes do not equate to jingoism.

No, but having the stars and stripes on the Santa Maria (or any ship on its way to colonize the Americas) seems kind of absurdly US-centric. C'mon, that's the only reason Europeans came over here? To have a bunch of English religious fanatics, ex-cons, debtors, and lowlifes (with their descendants) have a revolt over taxes and found the USA, a country which everyone at the time would have given about fifty years tops before it was reabsorbed into the British Empire?

 

[frekk]

...until you realize that they don't have the hundreds of hours to devote to a single game that the members here and at Apolyton you mentioned do, and they have to cover many games (sometimes dozens) in a month.

No excuse. Most reporters are capable of interviewing people who know what they're talking about, defer to the more knowledgeable, and take care to double-check their facts to make sure they get things right. Video game reporters are generally of poor quality because they rarely bother with any of these things.

 

[Crowqueen]

No, but having the stars and stripes on the Santa Maria (or any ship on its way to colonize the Americas) seems kind of absurdly US-centric. C'mon, that's the only reason Europeans came over here? To have a bunch of English religious fanatics, ex-cons, debtors, and lowlifes (with their descendants) have a revolt over taxes and found the USA, a country which everyone at the time would have given about fifty years tops before it was reabsorbed into the British Empire?

...Erm. Yes, it would appear so. There were German, Dutch, French, Portuguese and Spanish lowlifes too, but never mind. If you are so ashamed at being American, then perhaps you should return to the motherland and be reabsorbed yourself.

@Frekk - no, that award goes to British newspaper journalists, who I enjoy catching in outright lies. The only review of Civ Rev I haven't bothered to read is the British Guardian one, because I know it will be a pile of crap written by someone only marginally less shrill, pinko and in denial about certain issues than the person in the original link. In fact some of the best journalism I've ever read (Amiga Power) was video game reporting.

 

[Lockesdonkey]

...Erm. Yes, it would appear so. There were German, Dutch, French, Portuguese and Spanish lowlifes too, but never mind. If you are so ashamed at being American, then perhaps you should return to the motherland and be reabsorbed yourself.

It's not shame, it's self-deprecation. In any case, I myself am descended from a political emigre from Egypt within the last half-century, so...no.

 

[frekk]

...Erm. Yes, it would appear so. There were German, Dutch, French, Portuguese and Spanish lowlifes too, but never mind.

Actually England was fairly unique in using its New World colonies as a social pressure vent by settling them with malcontents, like the Puritans, and encouraged those who were faring poorly to make a new start in the colonies. Most of the settlers were town dwellers, rather than farmers, and very few practiced artisans or craftsmen were among them (because these were generally succesful and in demand in England). Strangely enough it was a hugely succesful method of colonization and the Republic continued the policy (there was nothing new about "huddled masses" and "wretched refuse" when the inscription was placed on the Statue of Liberty - it resonated because it had been so since the start).

The French, for instance, envisioned New France as a chance to make a "pure" Catholic country, free of Huguenots and other undesirables, and mostly when colonists were sought, they looked to refined persons of means - seigneurs - and charged them with the responsibility to assemble the farmers, artisans, etc that they would need to support themselves overseas as a small colony. They took active measures to prevent malcontents from settling in New France, though they were not always succesful.

Likewise the Spanish populated their colonies with clergy and the younger, landless, fortune-seeking sons of nobility, hoping to create a kind of feudal Utopia with the Christianized natives as the peasant class.

 

[SharpMango]

Actually England was fairly unique in using its New World colonies as a social pressure vent by settling them with malcontents, like the Puritans, and encouraged those who were faring poorly to make a new start in the colonies. Most of the settlers were town dwellers, rather than farmers, and very few practiced artisans or craftsmen were among them (because these were generally succesful and in demand in England). Strangely enough it was a hugely succesful method of colonization and the Republic continued the policy (there was nothing new about "huddled masses" and "wretched refuse" when the inscription was placed on the Statue of Liberty - it resonated because it had been so since the start).

The French, for instance, envisioned New France as a chance to make a "pure" Catholic country, free of Huguenots and other undesirables, and mostly when colonists were sought, they looked to refined persons of means - seigneurs - and charged them with the responsibility to assemble the farmers, artisans, etc that they would need to support themselves overseas as a small colony. They took active measures to prevent malcontents from settling in New France, though they were not always succesful.

Likewise the Spanish populated their colonies with clergy and the younger, landless, fortune-seeking sons of nobility, hoping to create a kind of feudal Utopia with the Christianized natives as the peasant class.

interesting, i never thought about that before...would you say this is why the french rule in N.America ultimately failed to succeed?

 

[r_rolo1]

Well, from the governement ideas for american colonies, ultimately only one worked as intended: the Portuguese one ( I wonder why nobody mentioned it yet.... ) The french failed to attract enough people to make something strong enough to face the English, the English failed to maintain control of their colonies ( something about "taxes without representation" ) and ultimately leaded to 3 ex-English colony countries in the Americas, The Spaniard experience ultimately led to a lot of Feudalized relatively small countries more interested in warring each others than in anything else ( logical step of a feudal-styled system when you withdrawn the King figure of the active board )...... The Portuguese only intended a united and Catholic colony ( they acepted anyone in Brazil as long as it was Catholic.... Italians ,Germans.... ) and even the indenpendence was relatively harmless.....

 

[frekk]

interesting, i never thought about that before...would you say this is why the french rule in N.America ultimately failed to succeed?

No ... the Seven Years War was a global conflict, and France was fighting Britain not only in North America but also in Europe and in fact the bulk of France's efforts went to the European theater, while Britain sent large numbers of forces from Europe to the colonies and expended most of its efforts in colonial theatres. Considering their tiny population, and the fact they had to fend for themselves, the French colonies did very very well for themselves and if it was merely a war between the colonies, without overseas reinforcements, probably could have held their ground or even forced concessions.

Particularly illustrative of the state of things was the Albany Congress, just two years before the Seven Years War opened. This was essentially a meeting between the Iroqouis - England's allied native superpower - and colonial representatives. At issue was the fact that the English colonies simply couldn't defend themselves from the French and their numerous minor native allies, and the Iroqouis were upset at shouldering the burden by themselves. One of the Iroqouis leaders is famously quoted as having said, "We desire that you will strengthen yourselves ... you have thrown us behind your backs, and disregarded us ... brethren, you were desirous we should open our minds and our hearts to you; look at the French, they are men; they are fortifying every where; but we are ashamed to say it; you are like women, bare and open, without any fortifications."

 

[Crezth]

We came, we saw, we conquered. Get over it.

 

[Vietcong]

im glad my white ansestors conquered america from the natives, with out that i whouldnt be hear, pluss the natives didnt defend it very well.

 

[volbound1700]

I made an age of discovery scenario which I made all out historical and put slaves as resources in Africa and South America to represent the slave trade.

 

[GIO888]

it's a game that reflects history.

Like GTA4 is a game that reflects modern society..............

 

[Codypc]

It is pathetic that there is even a question on this. It is more pathetic that someone would think of this.

Seriously, how many people playing the game say "I hate the damn indians, lets kill them all." The average sane player recognizes natives in the game for what they are, a valuable component of the game.

The real problem comes when the people who make the game start worrying about the few lunatics out who over react and try to make an issue out of anything that involves race (or religion, I was very disappointed about the approach to religion in Civ4).

 

[Woodreaux]

...until you realize that they don't have the hundreds of hours to devote to a single game that the members here and at Apolyton you mentioned do, and they have to cover many games (sometimes dozens) in a month. Trust me, it's not an easy job to play enough of a game to figure out what an audience will or will not like about it, then write a review that's concise enough to see print while being thorough enough to cover the topic and fair to the game's target market, all while speaking to your particular audience.

I must respectfully disagree. Sports journalists who write articles about teams or games are expected to know what they are talking about. Take college football, where there are over a hundred teams in Div-IA. With all but the handful of teams who are off are playing every week, individual writers and prognosticators have an enormous amount of material to cover. When these guys write stories, make projection or post rankings that are ridiculous they get hammered in reply comments section. Just go look at the comments to Mark Schlabach's columns on ESPN. Mr. Schlabach's projections are, put politely, unreasonable, hence readers are slamming him.

Likewise, a "video game reporter" writes a pitiful article about a video game and he's now receiving the well earned criticism. Video game writers must be held to the same standards expected of journalists in other fields.

 

[SilentHunter]

No ... the Seven Years War was a global conflict, and France was fighting Britain not only in North America but also in Europe and in fact the bulk of France's efforts went to the European theater, while Britain sent large numbers of forces from Europe to the colonies and expended most of its efforts in colonial theatres.

Your analysis seems accurate, I would add that in fact England was fighting against France and France was fighting against Austria to protect Prussia from them. As Austria was a major power at the time, France had to spend huge manpower there. In colonies it's mainly local settlers and natives that fought against British troops. Only some french marines were there.
In France, the Seven Years War is known as "the war for the king of Prussia", because France did fight against her own interrest. This war created a strong British empire in the world, kicking France out of her main colonies and a strong Prussian kingdom in Europe, giving the first blow to french military superiority over Europe, which will end in the french defeat of 1940.
Between 7 Years War and WW2, France lost around 10 times more population during wars than UK or any other nation in Europe, in order to keep it's leadership. Far more than what could be supported by the country.

At the beginning of WW2 population figures in Europe were:
70M German
48M UK
40M France,
to be compared with 1700 figures:
25M France
6M England (8 UK)

The impressive difference is to be related with huge french casualties during Revolution Wars, Napoleonic Wars and WWI.

7 Years War had probably a greatest impact on today's world than any of the world war or Napoleonic Wars.

 

[hevehoc]

Racism? no it's a game (as many other said).

 

[Healz]

Civ IV is not racist. It is just that Firaxis provided some cultural distinctions and then left it to others to fill in the gaps in the unique units to produce a graphically distinct game ala Wolfshanze Mod for Civilization IV. I really do think though they did make a big mistake in putting the US ensign on one of the ships. That wasn't used until the American War Of Independence. Did they even use the right Stars and Stripes or a Modern Stars and Stripes Version?

 

[dwhee]

I voted yes. Ghandi was a racist, Abraham Lincoln was a racist, I am a racist, and so are you.

It follows that Sid Meier is a racist, and that any game that Sid Meier creates is going to be a little bit racist. Why does this deserve another . .. .. .. .ing thread?

 

[Healz]

dwhee how exactly was the real Ghandi racist? Keep in mind he kept in control a lot of elements that would have tried to achieve Indian self-rule by other more violent methods. Also Abraham Lincoln was the one that proposed freedom for slaves. Okay so he failed to think about providing for them. But that doesn't exactly sound like the actions of a racist man to me... In games you deal with abstractions based on a character as it is very difficult to program in all facets of somebody realistically. A lot of characters in popular TV, Books and Plays are not really fully developed three dimensional...