Is France turning masochist ?

[betazed]

Oh Marla, don't worry!

In 50 years all your problems will be solved. At the current birth rates no original French will be left to worry about!

So relax...

 

[blackheart]

I'm not so sure about that. What makes you think that?

Marla's whole post about being repeatedly apologetic for everything mistake France has made.

 

[Yeeek]

I honestly think it is the fault of Napoleon's Empire. I mean after such a great achievement in Imperialism and having it slip from your fingers, what people wouldn't look back and glamorize that time and want it back? France is still stuck too much in anything from the past to move into the future.

Napoléon.

Again, if you believe French people are proud of Napoléon's military conquest and the legacy he left behind, you are wrong. We are however thankfull for the héritage he left behind, such as the Code Civil, the Baccalauréa to name a few.

There is no glorification of Napoléon in france. It would be somewhat not sane to do so, don't you think? After th Napoléon Era France lost its colonies oversea, pretty much lost its power in Europe and the world.

IF anything, i could be proud of such names, Voltaire, Maupassant, Diderot, Racine, Balzac, La Fontaine, Verne, Hugo, Beaudelaire and the list could go on. France as a long heritage of writers and poets. Now that is something to be proud of not some crazy small man who killed 6 millions of europeans in its time to boost his own ego.

 

[Yeeek]

Oh Marla, don't worry!

In 50 years all your problems will be solved. At the current birth rates no original French will be left to worry about!

So relax...

Pretty much every like everywhere on this planet.

 

[BasketCase]

First, I should say that France is the evil incarnate : while UK is guilty of colonialism, Germany is guilty of the holocaust and the US are guilties of slavery, France is guilty of all the three together.

The people and leaders who committed all the above are dead.

To me it's a closed issue. The living can't be held responsible for the crimes of the dead. I have mild disagreements with some of France's current policies, and that's all.

 

[Yeeek]

The independance war of algeria happened in 1954-1962, its still very fresh in people's memory and there are lots of taboo about it. Tortures done by french autorithies was pretty much the common way to subue informations from independist (called terrorist in france).

Of course there has been movies, books about it but no real discussion happened.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

Sorry to ask this question in here, you probably don't care, but I start to get really sick about the current athmosphere in France. In the latest months, and even the latest years, tons of various debates have sparkled over here about how much a bad country is the one we, French citizens, live in. Well, I'm all for self-criticism, I think that's always good to take a step back on ourselves, but we are reaching levels which become totally ridiculous.

I didn't realize that things were this way in France, but here in the U.S., we have a similar mentality. There are all sorts of "victimized" groups claiming the US is the Devil because of some injustice on their people in the remote past. It could be the Natives, who assert that their degradation is akin to a Holocaust (although they don't seem to mind running casinos). It could be African-Americans who still believe "The (White) Man" still has them enslaved (although slavery was outlawed in 1863) in some other fashion. Every nation seems to have visited the sins of its fathers onto the current generation. It does no good to dwell on the past, since it prevents moving into the future.

What France needs is to elect a leader with some testicles, who will say to the effect that all the crimes of the past are in the past, acknowledge them, and to announce bold plans for the future. This will suitably distract the complaining populace. Thus far, I haven't seen such behavior from the current president, Chirac. However, I have noticed it in Sarkozy. Should I take this as a herald of future events?

 

[Goa]

As a german living in France (Grenoble), I think I got some nice observations to add. Firstly, concerning the guilt complex, it's us the unbeaten champion, and you 're not even close . Luckily I haven't been in Germany last year. As it was the 60th centenary of the end of WW2, there were hundreds of documentaries and movies on TV. And while I'm completely against forgetting what happened during WW2 (and I'm even quite proud of a lot of aspects as this heritage is handled in Germany) , doing too much is not healthy either. And by the way, when the german right wingers argue whether one can be patriotic, they allways point to the french where everyone is a big patriot. It's sort of common knowledge in Germany that the french all have a french flag at their house and singing the whole day the marseillaise (ok, a little bit exaggerating here). So in fact it was quite a positif surprise when I realised that the opposite is true, and that the past isn't glorified either.
So I agree that too much of a discussion of past issues is very annoying, on the other hand I think it's necessary. Just difficult to get a goos balance.

 

[Lotus49]

...all these elements are symptoms of an utter lack of self-confidence from French people. They don't like themselves, they are not confident about themselves, and in such a context, that leads to a crowd having no hopes in his own future. And I simply find this very sad.

Sounds like a lack of pride issue.

 

[Yeeek]

It's sort of common knowledge in Germany that the french all have a french flag at their house and singing the whole day the marseillaise.

Yeah, this is quite untrue. The only time i've seen other french waving the flag and singing the marseillaise in the streets was during the 1998 football cup (hopefully we are going to win this one too! )

If you are still living in Grenoble, we should have a beer sometime.

 

[Goa]

If you are still living in Grenoble, we should have a beer sometime.

Still here... if only one could find good beer here

 

[Lotus49]

I didn't realize that things were this way in France, but here in the U.S., we have a similar mentality. There are all sorts of "victimized" groups claiming the US is the Devil because of some injustice on their people in the remote past. It could be the Natives, who assert that their degradation is akin to a Holocaust (although they don't seem to mind running casinos). It could be African-Americans who still believe "The (White) Man" still has them enslaved (although slavery was outlawed in 1863) in some other fashion. Every nation seems to have visited the sins of its fathers onto the current generation. It does no good to dwell on the past, since it prevents moving into the future.

Any real American doesn't care what negative things others say about his country. He just smiles, and thinks "heh, I laugh at you - because I am here, taking advantage of opportunities that you cannot. Say what you want, and wallow around in your pit of negativity."

That's the key. -To not care what others think. Only a fool let's his self-esteem & self-worth be determined by others. Apparently, that's the mistake France is making here. Actually a lot of Europe seems to be rife with guilt. I say that's the way to spiral downward. Passion, pride, and drive -will take you forward. Depression, shame, and lack of goals/identity/pride will only be counter-productive.

To err is human, but that's no reason to have a cloudy conscience forever. Passion - that is the quintessential factor one must have. And it's human nature, that when others see you have that, they want to see you lose it.

It's just a game. I say screw 'em. What are they out to do? Try to bring me down? If that's all they're good for, why waste my time...

There's losers everywhere. Identify them quickly, ignore them, and avoid them. And certainly, don't listen to them, or let the get you down. Like I said, it's a game - people everywhere like to play. Don't get sucked in. Especially an entire nation as a whole.

Btw, my ancestors were high-ranking French aristocracy, that were forced to flee because of the revolution. If you'd like to reinstate me, I'm sure I could restore French national pride. ...But, more realisitcally, I'll probably just stay over here, at capitalism central, and try to re-establish my lost wealth... We got the message loud and clear, let the people rule themselves. And now, they're whinning about lost glory, and lost pride. Hmm, very hard to satisfy, those bourgeois.

 

[EdwardTking]

Marla,

Count your blessings not your tragedies.

Remember!

(1) France is self sufficient in food
which could be very useful in future.

(2) France has yonks of nuclear power
so the French will have the lights on.

(3) France is not currently occupied by
longbowmen, germans or uncle sam.
(just need to sort out the algerians)

(4) France can enjoy annoying foreign tourists
by speaking French all the time.

(5) French people can burn US flag, drive tractor
through McDonalds and exercise their UN veto.


If still feeling masochist, then pay someone to spank your
bare bottom with a wet kipper until it is purple; which you
will either (i) enjoy (ii) laugh or (iii) end your masochism.

 

[kronic]

(6) The French are outbreeding the rest of Europe.

 

[kronic]

As a german living in France (Grenoble), I think I got some nice observations to add. Firstly, concerning the guilt complex, it's us the unbeaten champion, and you 're not even close

Still here... if only one could find good beer here

What, you don't like tasty beer like...err...Kronenbourg?
But seriously, I'm moving to Paris in September and the utter lack of decent beer in France already scares me.

 

[MamboJoel]

But seriously, I'm moving to Paris in September and the utter lack of decent beer in France already scares me.

You'll get along with wine .

In 50 years all your problems will be solved. At the current birth rates no original French will be left to worry about!

Euh ? I'll quote kronic :

(6) The French are outbreeding the rest of Europe.

In fact, if I recall correctly we have the second birth rate in Europe right after Ireland.
This demographic indicator is kind of one of the few long run ecomic ones that we have on the positive side

It's sort of common knowledge in Germany that the french all have a french flag at their house and singing the whole day the marseillaise (ok, a little bit exaggerating here).

Are the germans confusing the french and the us americans ?
I was in Connecticut last november. I have family over there, so I'm used to flags in front of almost all houses. But this time I saw roads (near the boson post road in CN) with US flags every 50 meters for huge distances !
Put a french flag in front of your house and you'll be called a frontist (member of the far/xenophobic right party).

 

[Goa]

But seriously, I'm moving to Paris in September and the utter lack of decent beer in France already scares me.

Don't worry about the beer. Luckily they got a very good replacement called wine.
What you have to worry about is the lack of good bread. Sorry for the french, but your baguette just doesn't compare to a good Vollkornbrot

 

[Oerdin]

Untill shortly before the invasion in Iraq few years ago, i never heard the jokes on french military and the whole cheese eating surrender monkey stuff. And for some reason it was always some US poster who would go on about it. Coinsidence? You tell me.

In the US we have a large population of drooling idiots who repeat what ever they hear on Fox News or the Rush Limbaugh Show. It hurts their little heads to think so instead right wing media tell them to make fun of the French, shout at Democrats, or to support invading foreign countries which have nothing to do with Al Qaeda, or what ever else the Republicans in power want these tools to do. I guess it is far easier for the Republicans to appeal to such people then it is to justify an invasion, find WMDs, or actually plan for post war occupations.

 

[Yeeek]

Put a french flag in front of your house and you'll be called a frontist (member of the far/xenophobic right party).

Now this is something that does irritate me. Say the word immagration and you are taxed as a racist. I blame this on the Front National, it seems that if you are patriotic you are labelled as a nationalist or someone who votes for the Front National.

 

[Gladi]

What, you don't like tasty beer like...err...Kronenbourg?
But seriously, I'm moving to Paris in September and the utter lack of decent beer in France already scares me.

Bright day
And what is worse that when you find restaurant serving decent beer and order it to food they look at you like you are criminal and start hiding silverware from your hunnic view.

And Marla- most of Europe is feeling down right now. In Czechia we always talk about 1938, 1948, 1968, and all other lost chances ashamed that we did not fight. And all politicians suck and all work suck and everything suck and it is all hopeless and we are all guilty of it because we suck the most and if we went and drown ourself in Moldau we would do service to the world...