Is it dishonourable to restart a game?

[Gidoza]

First I want to thank everyone for the replies. This is very interesting to read.

Yes, starts are imbalanced, and that's good. It's strategy so you should take decision of policy and what to do after revealing some surroundings, meeting neighbors and how far they are, evaluating capital potential in food, early production to wonders, etc.

I'll be honest that I don't understand your point. I mean if I was playing Crusader Kings, I'd agree with you. But in a game like Civ, I'd say that imbalanced starts are intrinsically just plain wrong. Now I understand that only so much can be done about that - but having at least the starting city have equal bonuses across the board would to some degree peel back the troubles associated with starting in the middle of nothing for example, or in Tundra. I've also previously suggested that the Capital and Holy City should always have access to Baths, simply because it's strange to exclude such an important building. 10% bonuses are HUGE.

To your point though - while it's true that in different games and different starts I may play in different ways by taking different policies, I'm not sure how any policy tree could ever catch me up from an awful start that I have no control over. At best I can mitigate by how many points I lose or extend my Capital's fall by 20 turns. In other words - my point is that certain "imbalances" are game-breaking or unnecessary, while others are not. Starting city yields are the kind of imbalance that I don't think should be acceptable. And while Tundra starts are of course horrible, somehow that seems to me more acceptable than my Capital's getting less yields simply because it's not next to fresh water. (my suggestions, for lack of better description, amount to the idea that all Capitals are "implied" as being next to Fresh Water)

No, why should I bear the displeasure of playing with Huns that cannot build a single eki around capital due to rivers or tundra? I am playing for fun.

Well said.

 

[azum4roll]

Map scripts compensate for low fertility starts with extra bonus resources around the starting point.

Tundra start isn't too bad if you have coast access, and even if you don't there will be enough deer for all your food needs early game.

 

[chicorbeef]

I quit a lot of games in Renaissance-ish, but I'm too lazy to save scum anything other than a misclick usually. Most starts are playable to me, it's my own mistakes that make the difference.

 

[Tugboatspotter]

I never even considered that I could be dishonorable in a single player game except if I was posting that I am true master at deity.

I am a true master at deit...forget it.

 

[CppMaster]

Of course lying is dishonorable. Also restarting is not lying, so we don't need state such exceptions.

 

[azum4roll]

As beta testers it's better not to reroll starts and be biased about the difficulty and balance.

 

[Gidoza]

As beta testers it's better not to reroll starts and be biased about the difficulty and balance.

This is another good comment I can take to heart.

 

[Cokolwiek]

To your point though - while it's true that in different games and different starts I may play in different ways by taking different policies, I'm not sure how any policy tree could ever catch me up from an awful start that I have no control over. At best I can mitigate by how many points I lose or extend my Capital's fall by 20 turns. In other words - my point is that certain "imbalances" are game-breaking or unnecessary, while others are not. Starting city yields are the kind of imbalance that I don't think should be acceptable. And while Tundra starts are of course horrible, somehow that seems to me more acceptable than my Capital's getting less yields simply because it's not next to fresh water. (my suggestions, for lack of better description, amount to the idea that all Capitals are "implied" as being next to Fresh Water)

I don't think they are situation like that in VP, I haven't encountered them yet. I'd take diversity of starts and capitals, thank you very much. And many times I have non-fresh water capital or majority of the cities and it's not a problem at all. Freshwater access changes so little I would like it to change more really reflecting on its historical power.
I would say buff a tundra pantheon to make up for it, make it unique instead of making every start similar.

Most starts are playable to me, it's my own mistakes that make the difference.

Amen.

 

[CppMaster]

Freshwater access changes so little I would like it to change more really reflecting on its historical power.

IMHO you underestimating fresh water. It's most impactful for Tradition plays.

 

[a3kov]

Freshwater access changes so little

+4 AND +10% culture AND +1 happiness per city is not little. You have no idea what you're talking about.

IMHO you underestimating fresh water. It's most impactful for Tradition plays.

You are too kind to the guy who likes to post nonsense just for the sake of being controversial.

 

[CppMaster]

You have no idea what you're talking about.

You are too kind to the guy who likes to post nonsense just for the sake of being controversial.

(grabs popcorn)

 

[Cokolwiek]

You have no idea what you're talking about.

There's no happiness from settling on a river and culture bonus triggers only during a golden age. I can win deity games without them, so your assumption that baths are needed for a good play is not true.

You are too kind to the guy who likes to post nonsense just for the sake of being controversial.

I've let your previous post in the pantheons thread be because I tend to be magnanimous to such misguided hatred.
However I would very much like to know what other people think. How about @Ziad who seem to value my input in the Carthage thread? How about @Gidoza who I think as a host of pantheon preservation thread appreciated my participation? Do they also think I post nonsense and try to be controversial? You have problems with founding on immortal, while fellow deity player, @tothePAIN actually followed my advice on how to effectively found with wide authority and it worked for him. Ha, one time even @CppMaster got a little impatient with my post which he wrongly took as a complaint, and @Recursive himself, extremely valuable guy, came to my defense. Here. Judging by number of likes even on some of my non-topic posts people tend to value "my nonsense" and I value their opinion more than your's (that of eternal whiner). Example. Another, beyond VP subforums.
For some of this "nonsense" I am actively asked by fellow users like @tothePAIN asked for my opinion in contrast photojournal recently, or @CrazyG expressed a wish to see continuation of my photojournals, so my opinion is at least somewhat valued. IIRC also @Rhys DeAnno shares my views on balance or deity issues frequently. The same with @ElliotS or @CrazyG I had disagreements with in the past, but we now buried the hatchets and value each other's opinions and participation. At least I value their participation greatly. Yeah, as some of them noticed, I talk big, but can prove my points in photojournals (more of them coming) or by them following my playstyle and seeing it works. And many times people agree with my point of view, but you only seem to attack me.
It is not me who wish to change many basic game feature's to make game easier in your threads, it is you. "Barbarians are broken" no they not, take better care of your pathfinder. "Limited number of religion is nonsense": no its not, I can found consistently on any difficulty beside deity. "Tradition needs higher supply": no its not, I can win with it on any difficulty, just like many other players. Quit whining on the forum, get better at game and don't call higher difficulty players opinions nonsense. And yes, you can win games without restarting, save-scumming, or with bad terrain.

And I assure you, had I wanted to be controversial (never tried to) my best days on this forums are already in the past as some may remember when I got much fervor to improve the mod.

 

[a3kov]

There's no happiness from settling on a river and culture bonus triggers only during a golden age.

Happiness is from a guaranteed random event, where you pay 3gold for 1 happiness (amazing deal unless swimming in happiness already).
And permanent or near permanent golden ages are not a hard thing to achieve with certain play.

I can win deity games without them, so your assumption that baths are needed for a good play is not true.

Where did I say it's needed ? You said it's "little" I said bs.
It's a huge advantage. If there was a single policy that provided these benefits, everybody would say "Imbalanced", but here it's provided by 1 building thanks to the randomness of the map.

I've let your previous post in the pantheons thread be because I tend to be magnanimous to such misguided hatred.

I don't like self proclaimed experts, who don't know basic things. In that thread you told me I shouldn't work tiles without features. If you actually were a Deity expert you would know that Open Sky is amazing pantheon because most flat tiles in the game don't have features.

"Barbarians are broken" no they not, take better care of your pathfinder.

How can you take care, if you discover a barbarian on your 2nd move ? No, it's not balanced and this is just another elitist nonsense from you.

"Limited number of religion is nonsense": no its not, I can found consistently on any difficulty beside deity.

And you also beat India on pantheon.

 

[Ziad]

I don't like self proclaimed experts, who don't know basic things. In that thread you told me I shouldn't work tiles without features. If you actually were a Deity expert you would know that Open Sky is amazing pantheon because most flat tiles in the game don't have features.

I think it's fair to say that this boils down to opportunity cost. Generally you shouldn't work a flat tile with nothing on it unless there's literally nothing better or the trade-off is worth it. There's a lot of variables to consider here. Sometimes that additional yields are worth it. Sometimes you're better off working more food to grow more quickly. But I'd definitely side with working tiles with resources and/or features first and foremost as default.

How can you take care, if you discover a barbarian on your 2nd move ? No, it's not balanced and this is just another elitist nonsense from you.

This is unfortunate and sometimes you do go get zerged, but this has a very low probability of happening. Sometimes you get unlucky. Balance is making sure the median is as fair as possible, and generally speaking this is the case. Do you notice when you get absolutely no trouble from barbarians at all? It happens almost as often as what you describe.

---

Also I think the pointed nature of this discussion is unnecessary and counter-productive.

 

[a3kov]

Generally you shouldn't work a flat tile with nothing on it

Another one
I can only suggest everyone open civilopedia and learn what a feature is. Wheat is not a feature, stone is not a feature. Calendar lux and flat mines are not features either. All of this gives bonus for Open Sky.

Sometimes you get unlucky. Balance is making sure the median is as fair as possible, and generally speaking this is the case.

And it should avoid random events giving major setbacks without a way to mitigate for the player. This is a strategy game, not a lottery simulator.

 

[Cokolwiek]

This is a strategy game, not a lottery simulator.

Said a guy who plays with events on

Happiness is from a guaranteed random event, where you pay 3gold for 1 happiness (amazing deal unless swimming in happiness already).

Real men play without events. This is a strategy game, not a lottery simulator.

Another one

Being done offensive towards me, now you are offending another user?

 

[Cokolwiek]

I don't like self proclaimed experts, who don't know basic things. In that thread you told me I shouldn't work tiles without features. If you actually were a Deity expert you would know that Open Sky is amazing pantheon because most flat tiles in the game don't have features.

Lol, no, I told you that whatever you work, open sky is garbage too found with, because its not rich in faith. If you don't see that you will never improve your play.

And you also beat India on pantheon.

Now this is a true nonsense.

 

[Ziad]

Another one
I can only suggest everyone open civilopedia and learn what a feature is. Wheat is not a feature, stone is not a feature. Calendar lux and flat mines are not features either. All of this gives bonus for Open Sky.

Relax I'm not fighting you. I mentioned resources. Open Sky only works on flat plains and grassland with no features. So you are only working 2 or 1 1 if there are no resources on them. Generally speaking it's not worth it if there are no resources. Open Sky makes it somewhat worth it in given conditions, but only if the opportunity cost isn't too great.

So it's correct to say that generally speaking you don't work flat tiles without resources or features.

And it should avoid random events giving major setbacks without a way to mitigate for the player. This is a strategy game, not a lottery simulator.

Random events are part of any strategy game. It goes back to tabletop games where you can randomly land on a tile that triggers it and/or pick a random card from a deck.

 

[Cokolwiek]

Open Sky only works on flat plains and grassland with no features. So you are only working 2 or 1 1.

He was mentioning working flat stone, wheat, pastures, and plantations. But whatever it was a bad plan as their do not give enough faith.

 

[Ziad]

I see.