Is it dishonourable to restart a game?

[a3kov]

I think coastal bias is bad for tradition. I find a start that is both inland and without freshwater quite rare.

It was obvious that coastal bias hurts Korea too much even in Vanilla. Coast tends to have less rivers and fresh water.
With naval supply being a problem and with losing half city land to water tiles (which are inferior now), the only saving grace for coast right now is cargo ships.

 

[CrazyG]

But I do feel pretty strongly that a small bonus early is better than a big bonus mid game. Things snowball so hard. And settling on a lux isn't even that small +6-8gpt and maybe +1h from T10 onwards.

I see what you are saying, but this only looks at mining or trapping luxuries. You cannot connect quarries or plantations by turn 10.

It also assumes you meet an AI who has 6-8 GPT to trade, which means 8 or 10 gold total because they don't trade the last 2 gold they have. I just had this situation play out, Zulu values my luxury at 7 GPT, but has only ever had 5 positive GPT in the ancient era. My other neighbor, Carthage, only values it at 3 GPT.

I realize that this is a very good start when it works, and you should give up a bath in that situation. But that's really specific, and you have no way of knowing how much gold AI you meet will be able to trade. The tile also won't qualify for pantheons, granted isn't that big of a deal for mines or camps. Even among mines, a salt hill is a crap tile to put a city on, I would much rather have a mine there when building settlers. You also won't get bonuses like forges to the tiles, because it's not a mine, it's a city.


If you are talking tradition, you really want to hit 4 pop before you take your social policy. That means that 3 food for flat freshwater is really important. Taking tradition at 3 pop gives you 105 food (43 + 62). At 4 pop you get 146, a difference of 31 food.

Baths have a base of 2 culture, get another 2 if you have tradition, and have a synergy with gardens and amphitheaters for another 3 culture and 3 gold. That's an extra 7 culture without golden ages.


I actually think I'm most likely to do this with Marble, because you can get the 15% towards wonders instantly and use it on Stonehenge or Pyramids. Or a faster monopoly, like settle on tobacco to get the faith monopoly sooner, plus then you don't have to work a crap tobacco plantation.

TL:dr
It's sometimes right to give up fresh water this way, but not always.

 

[Cokolwiek]

Good points from CrazyG. Another is availability of mines. You really don't want to miss any of them, fully improved, if you are light on forests and hills. Like when you only got three or two in two or three tiles from your city, so you would run out of them too quickly.
To counter the trade deal one however are tradition factions. They seem to have much gold early on but its mostly depend on what their luxes are, so its risky at best.

 

[stii]

I see what you are saying, but this only looks at mining or trapping luxuries. You cannot connect quarries or plantations by turn 10.

It also assumes you meet an AI who has 6-8 GPT to trade, which means 8 or 10 gold total because they don't trade the last 2 gold they have. I just had this situation play out, Zulu values my luxury at 7 GPT, but has only ever had 5 positive GPT in the ancient era. My other neighbor, Carthage, only values it at 3 GPT.

I realize that this is a very good start when it works, and you should give up a bath in that situation. But that's really specific, and you have no way of knowing how much gold AI you meet will be able to trade. The tile also won't qualify for pantheons, granted isn't that big of a deal for mines or camps. Even among mines, a salt hill is a crap tile to put a city on, I would much rather have a mine there when building settlers. You also won't get bonuses like forges to the tiles, because it's not a mine, it's a city.


If you are talking tradition, you really want to hit 4 pop before you take your social policy. That means that 3 food for flat freshwater is really important. Taking tradition at 3 pop gives you 105 food (43 + 62). At 4 pop you get 146, a difference of 31 food.

Baths have a base of 2 culture, get another 2 if you have tradition, and have a synergy with gardens and amphitheaters for another 3 culture and 3 gold. That's an extra 7 culture without golden ages.


I actually think I'm most likely to do this with Marble, because you can get the 15% towards wonders instantly and use it on Stonehenge or Pyramids. Or a faster monopoly, like settle on tobacco to get the faith monopoly sooner, plus then you don't have to work a crap tobacco plantation.

TL:dr
It's sometimes right to give up fresh water this way, but not always.

You are missing the 2GPT from the title itself. So when they offer 5gpt you get 7. I do agree that you shouldn't settle on salt. The extra gold means you can buy a worker quicker, which then gets you even more gold. My main worry is pretty much always getting settled in early game. Those are the hard games, where you struggle to place a 4th city. So Gettings this a bit faster and therefore settling faster is much more important. I do agree baths are good, I just don't think that state of the game is anywhere near as important.

Again I do agree getting to pop4 is big, but you might be better serve getting that by moving too, like moving next to 3f1h1g titles is worth quite a lot early.

I generally find my tradition cities don't run out of mines as you have specialists and manufactories. I'd rather grow my city to be huge by working lots of food titles than mines.

 

[Stalker0]

I knew this thread had too many posts to be a simple discussion is dishonorable behavior, man you all have been busy!

I will note that the Baths may be a sleeper building, and it could be underestimated in its impact. First, the building will generate +5 culture (+7 with tradition) when its associated buildings get built.

That's a solid amount, but not necessarily a major issue. However, when you throw on the extra 10% culture for GAs...GAs become very common by the late game, that is a LOT of culture from one building...I haven't done the math but I could actually see the argument that the baths is actually the highest culture generating building in the game.

So I do like the argument that baths gets a special note that says "Fresh water or palace" to allow its capital placement. I don't think the 10% matters as much in satellites, but even in a progress capital that's a lot of culture to leave on the table for a non-freshwater start.

 

[CrazyG]

You are missing the 2GPT from the title itself. So when they offer 5gpt you get 7.

I'm not missing that, it just isn't always there. Your approach applies to less than half of the luxuries in the game. I agree it can be the right move sometimes, but only sometimes. A bath is like half a wonder, available for a small amount of production and without risk.

So I do like the argument that baths gets a special note that says "Fresh water or palace" to allow its capital placement. I don't think the 10% matters as much in satellites, but even in a progress capital that's a lot of culture to leave on the table for a non-freshwater start.

I'd like a wonder or maybe a social policy that allows building them everywhere.

 

[stii]

I'm not missing that, it just isn't always there. Your approach applies to less than half of the luxuries in the game. I agree it can be the right move sometimes, but only sometimes. A bath is like half a wonder, available for a small amount of production and without risk.


I'd like a wonder or maybe a social policy that allows building them everywhere.

I mean are are missing that is what I'm talking about? Like that is where the numbers I gave came from that you challenged.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

I'd like a wonder or maybe a social policy that allows building them everywhere.

What if they just became available to be built in every city once you reached a certain tech (industrialization/electricity) or era (industrial/modern)? That would give tradition baths a few eras to shine and do their thing exclusively, while then letting everyone potentially get in on the 10%GA culture throughout the late-game. It would thematically represent the shift from public bath houses to residential baths.

 

[CrazyG]

I mean are are missing that is what I'm talking about? Like that is where the numbers I gave came from that you challenged.

I said you are sometimes right.

I think what's missing is you realizing how often these numbers are wrong. Your GPT numbers only work for flat non-freshwater truffles, gems, or silver. Or gold.

That's only 4 of the luxuries available. That's not even a majority of starts.

 

[a3kov]

I think giving fresh water to all cities (non-freshwater settled cities get freshwater from the Well) would greatly improve balance. Also historically freshwater has been a critical requirement as humanity can't survive without fresh water at all - it simply doesn't make sense that in VP cities can survive without it. River and lake settled cities would still get their benefits as their adjacent farms also get the boost, but for a Well-freshwater city only the city tile would get the boost.

 

[stii]

I think the problem is that you are being rewarded again for fresh water when you are already rewarded

I said you are sometimes right.

I think what's missing is you realizing how often these numbers are wrong. Your GPT numbers only work for flat non-freshwater truffles, gems, or silver. Or gold.

That's only 4 of the luxuries available. That's not even a majority of starts.

I think we have somewhat moved past each other and are now arguing different things.

I am only saying that moving off fresh water to settle a T10 lux is worth it. So only gold/silver/copper/gems/ivory. I don't even think truffles is worth it because you would lose the forest then. (I don't think it is possible to be on not a forest?) Probably marble too,if you are trying to build an early wonder

 

[CrazyG]

I am only saying that moving off fresh water to settle a T10 lux is worth it.

Sorry I got a bit aggressive there. If discussing only mines and ivory then yea I can agree, it's often a good play and I would consider giving up baths for it.

I think giving fresh water to all cities (non-freshwater settled cities get freshwater from the Well) would greatly improve balance.

This would make settling on a river a disadvantage. Wells are already a lot better than watermills.

 

[a3kov]

This would make settling on a river a disadvantage. Wells are already a lot better than watermills.

Rivers still get a lot more food. There are also additional bonuses (civs with river UA, +1 happiness on rivers, etc).

 

[stii]

Rivers still get a lot more food. There are also additional bonuses (civs with river UA, +1 happiness on rivers, etc).

I think if we are discussing moving you have to assume that you are still near enough the river to work those titles later on.

 

[stii]

Sorry I got a bit aggressive there. If discussing only mines and ivory then yea I can agree, it's often a good play and I would consider giving up baths for it.

It is easy to do no worries. Plus lot of the discussion here can get a bit heated

I am looking at the comparison games and have noticed all my tradition cities past my capital are one hex a river, which does make me wonder if any of them should have been placed slightly different. All of them had their reasons, but is a very high production position so an extra building is even lower cost than normal.

 

[CrazyG]

Yes I would try to just move off the river 1 tile to build a well. I already do this sometimes. The dream city location isn't on a river, it's 1 tile away bu next to a lake or oasis, since you keep the baths but get the well and not the watermill.

 

[a3kov]

The well's advantage is it's early availability, perhaps it should be changed. I think well's yields were made a bit weaker than watermill and to compensate it was put too early in the tech tree. I think well was created as a crutch to make non-river starts not to suck completely, but it was overdone and the crutch is too strong.

 

[stii]

Well I think the dream location is next to a realllly huge mountain range so you can take the mountain pantheon and get a huge bonus off it, but I guess I am getting really off point then

I do wonder how hard it would be to make either a balanced map script or change some stuff so start locations are closer to equal. Some resources are just better than other, the most extreme being desert incense which is so utterly miserable. I guess it would be rather complicated.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I'm OK with baths how they are. Non-freshwater starts do generally feel less strong (as do coastal starts) but not to a degree that it makes things like my UI or UA irrelevant or that it's an auto-loose unless I am playing on Deity or something .

If anything, I would support buffing coastal capitals in some way rather than fresh-water ones. At least if you settle in the middle of a continent your non-freshwater capital probably has access to a lot of land tiles long-term which definitely a strength (especially if you have a unique improvement).

 

[azum4roll]

I'm OK with baths how they are. Non-freshwater starts do generally feel less strong (as do coastal starts) but not to a degree that it makes things like my UI or UA irrelevant or that it's an auto-loose unless I am playing on Deity or something .

If anything, I would support buffing coastal capitals in some way rather than fresh-water ones. At least if you settle in the middle of a continent your non-freshwater capital probably has access to a lot of land tiles long-term which definitely a strength (especially if you have a unique improvement).

Coastal capitals have the advantage of having more trade partners, assuming you play a continents-styled map. Capitals often have higher resource diversity to generate more yields from trade routes.