[BTS] Is it just me or is ....

[crashmon]

Saladin one of the most painful AI's to have. It seems like every game I play which has him its a slog getting him to capitulate, and he has so many units, that it feels like a never ending slog killing them... and this is on Monarch, I can only imagine what his stacks must be like on Deity.

I know I don't have many hours of this game under my belt as most others (around 500 according to Steam), but since I have started to play more on Monarch and Emperor, everytime I see him now I have to keep stopping myself re-rolling the game.

I have him on my shadow game as well (aarrrgh), but hopefully as thats a Pangea, and high sea level, he won't have the time to build his hundred's of Camal Archers / Elephants...

Do any of you guys have other civs, where if you see them its a case of (oh christ, not again)

 

[lymond]

Hey crash -

I'm sure you've been pointed to this article before, but I will link it again - it's in the subforum to this forum:

Know They Enemy

No, I've not found Sal to be particular bad compared to other AIs. His "Resist Capitulation" is actually on the low end (4/10). His "unitprob" is on the higher end (6/10), but that is not unreasonable compared to some other leaders still higher on that scale. The 4 highest unitprobs are Nappy, Shaka, Rags and Mehmed, 3 of of which are considered "psychos". On there other hand, Sal does not plot war at pleased.

The capitulation factor is influenced a good deal by war success. Take a character like Sitting Butt who has the highest "resist cap" (10/10) - Genghis is another at that level. He can be tough to cap and he is actually on the high end for unitprob. However, I've had cases where I still capped him fairly quickly.

So, I think it may come down to how you approach the war with Saladin, plus maybe some other factors we are not aware of. For instance, he may have been plotting before your attack and went into unit build more, or was in a prior war subsequently. Regardless, the key is to kill a lot of his units without suffering too many losses yourself. And, of course, taking some cities. (I occasionally am able to cap someone without even taking a single city) I think it may simply come down to tactics and timing. Understanding first what you are going up against before attacking. Try luring his main stack to a good position to mop up rather than diving in an slamming units against a brick wall while suffering a lot of losses. I mean I don't know what is actually taking place in the particular game(s) you are referring to here, but can only surmise what is happening.

So no, Sal is not one to make me quake in my boots when I meet him. Any time one of the psychos - Nappy, Rags, Shaka, Monty, Genghis and Alex are next door - then that is always a concern. Toku is a PiTa for other reasons with his isolationism.

You could post one of your games where you had some issues with Sal to see if there were better options. On Monarch, there really should be no issues capping these guys though I realize you are still learning.

 

[AcaMetis]

Sally I've only found to be a nuisance if I'm not in a position to run his religion. If I can than he's a non-factor.

My most hated AI is undoubtedly Joao. He expands faster than Shaka and inevitably ends up demanding some top tier (for whatever point in the game I'm at) monopoly tech if not my entire treasury right after using a GM trade mission or something, and when refused he loves to start plotting war on you right then and there. I've gotten plotted and declared on by that guy more often than Genghis and Shaka combined.

 

[krikav]

I'm always happy when I see Saladin close by. He is a nice guy who doesn't plot at pleased, and he loooves religion and saturates all my cities with missionaries for me.

 

[krikav]

Past experiences play a huge role in this I think.
I remember a game where Boudica started plotting, then she got pleased and decided to gift ironworking to me.
I found iron and had time to whip out some axes before she declared.
Such honor!

I got backstabbed by Willy a game way back that I can't even remember, but forever when I see him, I keep my guard up.

 

[lymond]

My most hated AI is undoubtedly Joao. .

Joao does peeve me when he is close by, but I usually use him as a worker farm and generally harass him if that is the case. Otherwise, he's extremely easy to get to Pleased. Leave an extra resource copy available early for him to demand and he will like you forever and can't plot at pleased. But yeah, if he's real close, his expandy nature must be dealt with.

 

[crashmon]

Maybe I got spoiled in the monarch shadow game where they all fell over in 5 turns.. Just the last 2 games I've played it feels like even though I'm at 1.5 times his power, he still won't cap, when Hammi for instance capps after I take 2 or 3 cities.

So for instance in the Bismark game I'm playing here, https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/monarch-student-viii-bismarck.338814/page-4 I had hoped to cap him a couple of turns after my last post (turn 217), but it took me another 12 turns, and I had to take Medina, Mecca and be bringing cannons to Damascas, before he finally capped in Turn 229.

So now I'm moving to Toku, but once I get Toku down (he is behind so only has Samuri / Knights / Longbows), I then have to build Gallons and get to Hanni who is likely to have Rifles by then, and I was hoping to get to Hanny before he gets rifles..... (Ramesses and Sury are waaay behind, so no fear of them getting Rifles any time soon)

I guess I'm just impatient. At least I seem to be winning these now, but have learned in my Suli game when I did not have enough Cuirs, this time I waited until I had Cav's and rifles before taking Sally (did cuirs rush Hammi however). But I guess I should have waited for Cannons, or built more Trebs.

Mistake I made was not switching my espionage points to Sally soon enough I think, I only had enough points for one city revolt, should have kept it for Mecca.

Don't get me wrong here, I am winning these games now (before I was losing them in positions like this), but it really feels I seem to be doing it the hard way, but I guess this is what teaches us, but right now, I can't face taking out Toku in that game, so I'll give that a break and focus on the Shadow game for a bit.

EDIT

I think I know what the problem is reading your initial statement @lymond I think as I'm not using Seige (as its Cavs vs Longbows / Muskets), I'm losing too many when up vs walled hilly cities, so he has a better win% than he should so he won't cap....

Maybe I should use much more seige, but then that seems to slow down the whole Mounted units speed rush plot

 

[lymond]

I think I know what the problem is reading your initial statement @lymond I think as I'm not using Seige (as its Cavs vs Longbows / Muskets), I'm losing too many when up vs walled hilly cities, so he has a better win% than he should so he won't cap....

Maybe I should use much more seige, but then that seems to slow down the whole Mounted units speed rush plot

No, I don't use siege with mounted units. Cav should stomp on LBs/Muskets, granted Sal's are tougher, but still. Your always gonna lose some fights, or just have some bad luck, but the point is to minimize that as much as possible by using better tactics.

Heavily defended wall city? Try going for something else first, or looking for forking opportunities . Or simply try to hit his main stack first thing. Really depends on several factors, but I usually scout out my opponent before attacking. (And actually I use espionage far less than other folks).

I recall a recent example actually when going to war with good ole Sally himself not long ago. He was next door with his army mainly amassed in a city on one side of my borders. It was a flat city that luckily I could hit in one turn. I actually did use a spy for once, but the key here was that I could clobber almost his entire army in one shot with my stack of Curs. He basically capped right after. I can't remember if I took another city or not before capping him, but no more than 1 or 2 cities total.

In other cases, you might track the enemies main stack. Regardless of threat, AI generally likes to send armies immediately against you, so be prepared to take that army out at an opportune moment.

Another thing I do is usually have a smaller army threatening on a different front of their empire. This confuses the AI. I may or may not actually take cities with that stack but the point is to threaten cities, while my main army finds a good spot to hit. With multiple cities in danger the AI will often start moving units around, either leaving some cities less defend or providing fodder for easy kills. Forking does that too.

And note too, if you are not fully aware, that a threatened city is a city that can be attacked in one turn, either from 1 tile away (1 move units) or 2 tiles away (2 move units). The AI does sense this and the city reacts differently to a threat of attack both in what that city does and how the AI handles its units. If an AI city is threatened and that AI is in slavery, they will more than likely immediately whip a defender. That is why you generally should not "threaten" a city unless you have the means and will to attack it. Obviously, when one moves a siege stack next to city one may have to stay there a bit to bombard it, if bombarding is really necessary (it's sometimes better just to hit immediately instead of bombarding for turns especially early game with cultural defense is low anyway), but with mounted you don't want to leave your stack in a position of threat for extended time without intent to actually attack as the city will just build/whip more units. Unless, of course, as I mentioned early you have that small stack as a diversionary measure. You may know this already but just want to make sure you understand.

edit: oh..and lastly...not all wars are created equal. Sometimes you are just going to have bad luck or just come across a tough situation.

 

[dankok8]

One thing to note when using mounted is to use speed to your advantage. Grab a stack of like 20 and try to go straight for their capital and second city. That way you knock out their best production cities right in the beginning of the war. Using spies to cause revolt also synergizes well with mounted attacks because you don't wanna wait for lumbering siege to remove defenses.

 

[Gumbolt]

I thought all ai capitulated to the rule of 40. So each city you capture is 10 points. Each combat won is 3 points. As long as you don't lose a combat they should capitulate the next turn. Assuming they have no vassals.? You could also get them to a point of friendly and they might peace vassal? You do need to be at a certain size and land percentage. Know your enemy page Lymond posted is really useful for his. Indians love to peace vassal.

There was a SGOTM where one of the top teams got 3-4 AI to peace vassal. Not even sure if you need land bordering the AI. Think someone corrected me on this before.

Certainly gifting 4 cities and recapturing them the next turn can often do the trick. Of course if you have to use these tricks to win a game you need to improve your gameplay.

 

[Fish Man]

Unpopular opinion but Saladin is quite painful for two reasons - protective and madrassas. His pro trait means any early rush is far trickier as every AI loves to spam archers, and madrassas basically act as an extra cre trait which, combined with the religion he's bound to get, means that he eats up all your tiles. Also his preference for religious techs makes it so that he strays close to feudalism very early on, which...yeah, not a good thing combined with pro.

 

[crashmon]

I thought all ai capitulated to the rule of 40. So each city you capture is 10 points. Each combat won is 3 points. As long as you don't lose a combat they should capitulate the next turn.

This is the problem, I do go for the major cities as I feel if I take these he should cap earlier, but when walled and on hills, my Cav's are like 33% vs the longbows, so I do lose a few taking the city, which I think is why it takes me time. I do have barracks in most cities, stables in some, am in Theology when warring, so it should be ok, but I just need to figure out a way to minimise my losses when taking these big cities. Maybe should focus on smaller side cities.

Its the protective civ's I think which hurts, I don't have these problems with non protective civs

 

[Gumbolt]

People are taking Sal down with cuirs. If you played well you could be using cuirs against archers. 33% attack odds for mounted units is not unusual. If the odds were 5-10% then that would be a worry. Point of wars is to have big stacks. Confuse the AI on where you will attack. Forking cities can help. CG3 lb on a hill would be a big pain.Sometimes if you have leftover catapults these can help. Or maybe cannons if you have cavalry? Losing 3-4 units taking a city is not an issue if you are whipping every turn. Pick your targets. Don't rush Sal unless you need to. Maybe take him out early with HA if you are really worried? He can be got to pleased with shared religion.

Sal will be great for an early great people if you don't mind a G Priest. You can run 4xspecialists from one building. Quick culture could be useful.

 

[AcaMetis]

This is the problem, I do go for the major cities as I feel if I take these he should cap earlier, but when walled and on hills, my Cav's are like 33% vs the longbows, so I do lose a few taking the city, which I think is why it takes me time. I do have barracks in most cities, stables in some, am in Theology when warring, so it should be ok, but I just need to figure out a way to minimise my losses when taking these big cities. Maybe should focus on smaller side cities.

Its the protective civ's I think which hurts, I don't have these problems with non protective civs

Cavs are Gunpowder based units, and as such completely ignore Walls and Castles. It's only cultural defences and hills you need to worry about, and with Spies you can actually negate the former for one turn (not reliably, though - spies have a nasty tendency to get caught).

My advice would be to not skip small targets in favor of moving quickly to a big target. Jump from nearest city to nearest city, conquering everything in your path rapidly with 2 units, and leave behind the wounded with a medic so they can quickly heal and return to the front. Obviously a Great Medic will be very helpful here, even more so than with a Cannon rush since there's no "spend a turn bombarding while the rest of the stack has a chance to heal" turns. The thing is that AIs will not capitulate if they still control a lot of land, which their oldest cities are the least likely to lose cultural control of if they're captured since they're likely surrounded by slightly less old cities who've had a long time to gain border pops, and AIs will never capitulate if their military strength is above the global average. So if you're in a game with leaders like, say, Gandhi, it can take an awful lot of beating before a relative unit spammer like Sally will be willing to cap. And every turn you spend in war is a turn that Sally can whip another defender out of every city he has (the guy is SPI, so if needed he'll switch without anarchy too), not to mention that with Engineering Sally's 1 units will move faster than your 2 units in his territory so he'll reinforce faster than you can reach a distant target, so the more cities that guy controls the more you'll have to deal with.

In short: Grab a ton of Cavs, throw them at the nearest cities they can reach, repeat until AI is willing to capitulate and/or dead. Forking cities, BTW, is a great idea - it'll confuse the AI and cause them to move units around, forfeiting their stationary defensive bonus and making them that much easier to deal with. If you can plant a giant army within range of two cities and capture both next turn, that's Cavalry Rush gold right there.

 

[ArchGhost]

Saladin is a good techer, has a military tech preference, has PRO and Madrassa (and often religion) culture for early survivability....yeah I can see how he could be annoying. i tend to find him more so in big fields where he's left alone...he'll often get to better war techs like Feudalism, Gunpowder, Rifling or Steel faster and then trade it around to his buddies (who he tends to have a lot of, if he is the zealot converting everybody nearby). So yeah.


My most hated AIs are the ones that are fairly aggressive/militant but difficult to bribe or too cowardly to start scuffles even with those they despise....Gilgamesh is a perfect example of the former. He declares at Pleased but can only be bribed at Friendly (and only if he isn't Pleased or higher with them, making Pleased targets immune to bribes but not his normal DoW!), making him a liability as he is aggressive enough to pick fights with neighbors or just anyone, really. It doesn't help that he's CRE or that he has a military tech flavor either. Other leaders that share this war/bribe profile are HC, Pacal and Willem, who suffice it to say aren't as aggressive as Giggles.

 

[Gumbolt]

I think any AI that gets a decent footstep and is a warmonger can rule a map. GK, even Monty can be dangerous if unchecked. They are usually very backwards but if they find ivory could be annoying. On higher levls like deity they can spam a 50 strong stack even with only 7-8 cities. They are terrible at warfare so that always helps. If your reducing costs with just warriors defending you are never safe. I played one game where I constantly used Monty to back stab ai. He got super powerful with stacks of rifles roaming. 40+ units. Took a lot of effort to take him down.

On immortal if HA rush i normally head straight to the capital. On Deity you make a decision based on defenders. Ideally you want to attack someone with just archer defenders. HA vs swords/spears will be a bigger ask. With Cuirs you just take out the closest cities. As you know even with pikes and knights they will have no real answer to cuirs. Once the main stack is gone you should be wiping out the AI.

 

[SnipedSoul]

Sitting Bull is super annoying when he's right next to me since I can't really be his friend as everyone else hates him and constantly demands I cancel deals. He makes tons of demands for tribute and loves to spam his super promoted archers/longbows. You can't axe rush him because dog soldiers will destroy you. The only good thing about him is that he's not a particularly good researcher so you can take him out once rifles or cannons are available.

 

[Gumbolt]

SB loves to demand stuff but I think it drops when he is pleased? You can leave 1-2 resources so he can demand them? That or just monitor worst enemies in the game. Difficult if there are 1-2 religions going. At pleased he should not attack. So gifting 1-2 resources early on can help for +2 happiness.

 

[pigswill]

Been playing the same game: Declared on Sal 1500, grens+cannon vs LBs, HAs + WEs but there sure were a lot of them. Sal still wouldn't capitulate after I captured 3 cities and killed 100 units (tho lost 4 of my own) so I don't understand this 'rule of 40' at all. He eventually offered capitulation after losing another 40 units and 2 cities.

edit: A couple of days later, decided not to accept capitulation (available 1580) because I'd already taken five cities , didn't want to return them because he'd be too big and didn't want foreign culture so after a short ceasefire slogged through to annihilation in 1690. Ended up capturing 15 cities in total, killed 150 units (lost 6), got 3GG and ridiculous WW(11 in largest cities) but now clearly the biggest civ by a huge margin (which makes capitulating rest of the world a bit easier).

 

[AcaMetis]

Some AIs are more resistant to capitulation than others, and no AI in the game is willing to capitulate if their military strength is above the global average, IIRC, so you might have to murder an inordinate amount of units depending on how the board loos. The 40 war success is another requirement before an AI will consider capitulation, or at least a significant part of it because I believe I've seen AIs offer to capitulate without a single shot being fired when the situation is sufficiently lopsided. Of course by that I mean "literally the last free AI in the game vs. the player and his/her army of conquest vassals" levels of lopsided, so don't expect that situation to really matter all that often.