Is it possible to win Deity in a "fair" game?

[BornInCantaloup]

What is fair is all relative and will vary from player to player.
What is unfair is often what is new to one's mind.

I'm referring to the game, here. There can't be injustice as in a moral way, inside the game.
To call something unfair is very much like calling it cheesy or an exploit. And those things are relative in the same manner.

The first time one experiences a mechanic, he may find it cheesy. But then, as time passes, it becomes more and more normal.
So... maybe it takes a wide sense of "normality" to beat Deity on a regular basis. That is: using the means the game gives us.
A player who's integrated as normal the many things that he used to consider unfair will have better chances to beat any map.


I don't beat anything on a regular basis, by the way, so I'm not really praising my own parish, here.

 

[elmurcis]

Deity with no tech trading should be harder than just with no tech brokering

 

[Abegweit]

It all depends on the map. On an isolated start, no tech trading is clearly easier than default and no brokering is in between.

 

[dohh]

The better you get, the more you controll all AIs and the more they're all the same. A runaway AI on the opposite edge of the map is something, but it's nothing to be frightened of.

Tried 1 game on deity and 2 games on immortal. Still have no chance against deity. Picked Huana as well and tried to rush. SOMEHOW it is possible to win 1 or 2 AIs but the others will be so far ahead by that time, so its ridiculous.

Out of 2 immortal games I lost the one that I started with Gengis and tried to play on early military and won standard Huana wonder-building and gottage-farming game, catching up opponents by roughly 1 AD, building up military from then and starting sneacky attacks at about 1000 AD.

Im not sure what Im doing wrong, seems totally impossible to beat deity by quickly attacking AI. Its just, when I reach to firsh AI with 9-10 Incan warriors, there will be enough forces to kill most of my military off. At best try, I can defeat 2 AIs but then I will meet axemen already and Ai will start attacking my underdeveloped civilization...

BTW what version of civ 4 do You play?

 

[Seraiel]

Tried 1 game on deity and 2 games on immortal. Still have no chance against deity. Picked Huana as well and tried to rush. SOMEHOW it is possible to win 1 or 2 AIs but the others will be so far ahead by that time, so its ridiculous.

Out of 2 immortal games I lost the one that I started with Gengis and tried to play on early military and won standard Huana wonder-building and gottage-farming game, catching up opponents by roughly 1 AD, building up military from then and starting sneacky attacks at about 1000 AD.

Im not sure what Im doing wrong, seems totally impossible to beat deity by quickly attacking AI. Its just, when I reach to firsh AI with 9-10 Incan warriors, there will be enough forces to kill most of my military off. At best try, I can defeat 2 AIs but then I will meet axemen already and Ai will start attacking my underdeveloped civilization...

BTW what version of civ 4 do You play?

I play BtS.

Regarding a Quechua-Rush, there is a really good Guide by a player named virusmonster but you can also take the first writeups of me, they all cover whats needed for a Quechua rush. Also (very good) the writeup called 5 Mio points with Inca rush 2012 or similar by the player WastinTime.
In general you should be able to conquer 3 Civs with Quechuas, I admit though that this is difficult on many maps, I don't know %eges how many times it's possible, but I remember that I also often encountered problems when trying. Sometimes too many cities are on hills, sometimes the 3rd target has Bronze / Horses, sometimes simply bad luck like losing 4 Quechuas against 1 Archer.
This is ment to put things in relation, you shouldn't forget that I use a tool named "map-finder" which filters the maps that have good starts for me while my pc runs over night, and being as successful with Quechuas as WastinTime or me simply comes from playing a lot of maps. The named guide from Virusmonster tells very specifically about the basics, so it has very many numbers. Greater freedom and greater control when Quechua-rushing comes from having played very many maps and being comfortable with the basics.

9-10 Warriors for the first target i. e. are way too many, what you want is like 5 Quechuas at most to just conquer 1 city, then the reinforcements arrive and once you got 2 Quechuas / Archer again, you attack the next city. Try to lure out the defending Archers on the open field, by leaving a city undefended i. e., beating them open-field comes with almost 100% wins.

And conquering Civs is one part, but building a strong economy is something that's at least 3 times as difficult. If you play without Gold, you must beeline Cottages, getting Workers should be no problems with Incans, and something tremendously helping to stay in the tech-race is Oracle and furtheron the GLH and maybe even the Mids.
I'm guessing that this is the part where you have to learn the most, because at 1 AD, you could i. e. already be past Biology. Also, with Oracle, no Civ should be able to run away from you, as Incans, you should normally always be tech-leader.

Don't know if this helps.

Sera

 

[Macksideshow]

I won my first Deity game last night. Duel pangea, Me as Julius (selected) vs Ghengis (random). All standard options except no tribal villages. Praet rush ftw. Was that fair? It felt cheap but was harder than I thought it would be.

 

[dohh]

I play BtS.
I'm guessing that this is the part where you have to learn the most, because at 1 AD, you could i. e. already be past Biology. Also, with Oracle, no Civ should be able to run away from you, as Incans, you should normally always be tech-leader.

Thanks for detailed answer. Still have some doubts/questions. Can You suggest any good tech path with Huana?

On immortal I normally go AHus (if good spots with food available), Masonry -->BW-->mathematics then aestetics-->´literature and then military path (mixing in some techs that Ai does not search in first priority). Most times I get (pyramids, hanging gardens, 1 or 2 of aestetics wonders and the great library) and have a quite good economy by then. At least AI is not spacing any further from me in tech race. Going mathematics early gives flexibility hurry military if cocky AI shows up or get an extra wonder maybe. However Biology by 1AD is something I can not even imagine... hows that possible?!

Getting better in teching is essential for me, You are right here. As I like long-lasting games, where battles of different units take place. On immortal I have about 33% win rate with few loads maybe and on emperor about 66%. Would like to move to deity soon, but I see its a huge gasp between these two levels...

How important is a role of specialists using? Thats the thing Im really weak in... In long term gottage-based economy should be stronger... But on the other hand - if Your games end so early, You wont need that much.

I also play BtS. What is the last patch, or does it make any difference at all?
Also looked at Your guide no 8. Impressive, but still dont get it. If I make the very similar moves and reach opponent about the same time with about the same forces I meet much stronger armies and garrisons.

 

[Seraiel]

Thanks for detailed answer. Still have some doubts/questions. Can You suggest any good tech path with Huana?

On immortal I normally go AHus (if good spots with food available), Masonry -->BW-->mathematics then aestetics-->´literature and then military path (mixing in some techs that Ai does not search in first priority). Most times I get (pyramids, hanging gardens, 1 or 2 of aestetics wonders and the great library) and have a quite good economy by then. At least AI is not spacing any further from me in tech race. Going mathematics early gives flexibility hurry military if cocky AI shows up or get an extra wonder maybe. However Biology by 1AD is something I can not even imagine... hows that possible?!

Pottery -> Writing -> Alphabet (trade for everything) -> (Oracle) Currency -> CoL -> Civil Service -> Paper -> Education is one possibility.

You should be able to notice the difference towards your tech-path. This tech-path basically is an Alphabet-beeline in which one skips all techs that aren't directly on the way towards Alpha, and Potter > AH. Alpha at about 24xx - 22xx BC is so early, that there's little time to miss the other techs, and that's the time also then when one has all techs, not just this or that, but everything.
Currency is the key-tech past Pottery and should be reached as early as possible, as it has such a great power (Resources for GNP, Techs for Gold, etc. ) .

Another Path that is really powerful which I choose more often lately:

Potter -> Writing -> Alphabat (trade for everything) -> CoL -> (trade for Math or bulb with very early GS) -> (Oracle) Civil Service

The 2nd one is better, but more difficult.

What you should learn about are "beelines" imho, because I see lots of distractions in your choices of techs. You want to have a clear aim and then try to reach it as early as possible. With greater power one can choose your techs more freely and don't have to tech what AI doesn't tech, because being 1st gives more freedom.

Getting better in teching is essential for me, You are right here. As I like long-lasting games, where battles of different units take place. On immortal I have about 33% win rate with few loads maybe and on emperor about 66%. Would like to move to deity soon, but I see its a huge gasp between these two levels...

"The gap between Deity and IMM is about as big as the one between Noble and IMM" I've seen people write. If you want to conquer Deity, you have to "re-learn" , you have to "quit bad habits" , you "cannot think / do what you want" .

I found this from you in another thread:

1) I never whip, in fact I even dont switch to slavery
2) I do only rough specialization of cities (Oxford, heroic, Wall street etc)
3) I dont turn any citizens to secialist, only specialist I get, are free ones.
4) I love superior late cities as well and I feel harassed if I need to place cities so the tiles will be blocked by each other.

Those are total dealbreakers on Deity.

1. "It's impossible to live without the whip." (WastinTime)
2. Specialization has to be done. If all cities end up the same, it's because it is so, but specialization is a general advantage to efficiency. Building everything eveywhere is something that doesn't work out on Deity, try queuing only the next building that's needed, learn to decide every time for every single building if it really benefits your aims and your cause, if it doesn't hurt, or if you have to overcome your wish to build cities that are perfect for everything.
3. Specialist aren't that important. They're helpful though, if i. e. not enough workerturns are available to slow growth, it's advisable to have at least 1 city that runs specialists, usually the city with the most food. It's possible to win completely without them, but why would you want to not take an advantage that's offered to you? Specialists are that advantage, GPs are very powerful, make use of them.
4. "Good players understand the advantage of the early advantage (over the late advantage) . An early advantage exists for a longer time, to make a late advantage better than it, the late advantage must be lots of times better than the early one, think in short terms" .

How important is a role of specialists using? Thats the thing Im really weak in... In long term gottage-based economy should be stronger... But on the other hand - if Your games end so early, You wont need that much.

Already answered.

I also play BtS. What is the last patch, or does it make any difference at all?
Also looked at Your guide no 8. Impressive, but still dont get it. If I make the very similar moves and reach opponent about the same time with about the same forces I meet much stronger armies and garrisons.

I'm not informed about patch-versions deeply. I started playing with 3.19 and I have no choice there, because it's the version which is required for HoF.

Regarding the opposition at a certain time:

Maybe you're playing with different AIs? I've seen AIs like Hannibal i. e. build tons of troops, the situation you refer to, I attacked Elizabeth (AI with very low unit build rate) in a time where she was still expanding (-> few archers in single cities) . I then used the advantage of early Cho-Ko-Nu's against technological inferior units (Swords, Axes) therefor could do with little number.

Hope the advice is helpful, I spent at least 15 minutes in writing it. I think all I said is true. All the best,

Seraiel

 

[Fintourist]

Yeah, I would also be interested to see if someone has a well-reported deity win with settings and play close to something like this:
- pangaea (standard rate between players and map size)
- normal speed
- no tech trading
- no early worker stealing or quechua choking etc.
- no cheesy diplo tricks (let's scrap diplo victory)
- no other especially dull exploitations of AI behaviour/mechanics

PS. No offence to any deity players, I'm just wondering whether the handicaps are too big that they make it impossible to win deity with more straightforward approach.

 

[dohh]

Pottery -> Writing -> Alphabet (trade for everything) -> (Oracle) Currency -> CoL -> Civil Service -> Paper -> Education is one possibility.

Hope the advice is helpful, I spent at least 15 minutes in writing it. I think all I said is true. All the best,

Seraiel

I totally appreciate Your effort into explaining me the highest level of the game. I tried yesterday to follow Your advice and went exatly the tech path, You gave me. The result by 1250 bc is better than my usual path, Im still last in score but at least Im straight behind the AI.

However I tried play Lizzy, maybe not the best leader, but I kinda like her special units I was not able to found Alphabet first. Maybe France with given agriculture and wheel would be better pick?

Also Im about to find Currency in 10...15 turns, but one AI already has it. I have decent medium starting location for cottage farming, with no gold/gems tho. I also got iron but no horses which are near tho, at the evening I will see, where it takes me.

 

[Seraiel]

Maybe you should make yourself the game a little easier by i. e. choosing a start that has at least 1 Gold. Also, Lizzy is good, I like her too, but there are definately stronger Civs (mainly the ones with which rushing gets easier, so (if disregarding HC) Persians, Egyptians, Rome, etc.) . From the english Civs I'd probably morely choose Viccy if I were you, because you said you don't use specialists a lot, Viccy gets cheaper Settlers, she's IMP = very powerful trait.

1250 BC and still no Currency doesn't sound too good. I think you have to work more on how to build a strong economy, 1500 BC is usually the time at which you should have Civil Service on Marathon.

[EDIT]

Just checked, 1500 BC is the time at which you should have Civil Service when playing with HC. I'd btw. encourage you to post a save in the S&T Forum, preferably 4000 BC and then play small turnsets (like 20-30T on Marathon) and then wait for comments. Conquering Deity really is work, it's something that's not just possible with pure skills, great luck or by being a generally good gamer.

 

[dohh]

1250 BC and still no Currency doesn't sound too good. I think you have to work more on how to build a strong economy, 1500 BC is usually the time at which you should have Civil Service on Marathon.

Here we go. Screwed up with Lizzy and started with Darius. Strong traits and good unique units. Wasnt able to get currency anyway, but a decent step forward - I did successfully early attack Suleiman and fugured out it is possible after all...

Now Im going aestetichs that may be a mistake. Very good starting location by mean of food, much worse by mean of happiness. I also need Iron ASAP.View attachment Dohh5.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[ZeekLTK]

Also looked at Your guide no 8. Impressive, but still dont get it. If I make the very similar moves and reach opponent about the same time with about the same forces I meet much stronger armies and garrisons.

I think the disconnect here is that some of these tips are only valid if you have a specific start with specific opponents.

Reading a lot of the HoF stuff and just seeing the general "tips" around here, it seems like the HoF players don't actually play Deity, they play "easy Deity" meaning they only play maps where they have really good (advantageous) starts and they also hand pick their opponents to be easier than random (for example, you can usually count on seeing England and America as neighbors - civs that don't become threats until very late in the game, aka they aren't very difficult at the beginning).

So sure, if you want to play on great starts against easy opponents, then the tips are spot on. But if you just do a random map against random opponents, odds are that your start is not going to be as good as theirs, and your opponents are not going to be as weak as theirs, so their tips aren't going to be as useful.

 

[Seraiel]

I think the disconnect here is that some of these tips are only valid if you have a specific start with specific opponents.

Reading a lot of the HoF stuff and just seeing the general "tips" around here, it seems like the HoF players don't actually play Deity, they play "easy Deity" meaning they only play maps where they have really good (advantageous) starts and they also hand pick their opponents to be easier than random (for example, you can usually count on seeing England and America as neighbors - civs that don't become threats until very late in the game, aka they aren't very difficult at the beginning).

So sure, if you want to play on great starts against easy opponents, then the tips are spot on. But if you just do a random map against random opponents, odds are that your start is not going to be as good as theirs, and your opponents are not going to be as weak as theirs, so their tips aren't going to be as useful.

It'd be really nice if you instead of trying to demolish HoF and what it stands for could at least try to see what's reality.

In this case it's really very simple, the OP said he wanted to beat Deity, he said he was choosing the settings to his advantage, and I'm someone who is really trying to help him in his goal.

Your post is to me reads like the usual "HoF = " stuff I've been reading in these forums for the past 2 years.

FYI: HoFers don't play "easy-Deity" , HoFers play "every difficulty and every map-setting" . HoFers are versatile players, they go against the time that someone else scored on a map that's as advantegous and as strong. If you think HoF would be "easy-Deity" , take a look at those victories on Huge maps and faster speeds. It's general opinion that larger maps are more difficult if going for victory-types like Conquest / Domination meaning it takes more time to achieve those victory-types when the land is greater and players also generally agree on the fact that offensive wars are a lot harder to fight the faster the speed is, because units obsolete faster (other side of this is, yes, defensive wars are easier on quick speeds) , so following your logic, I can safely assume here that Huge / Quick / Conquest is "Super-Deity" .

Seraiel

 

[dohh]

I think the disconnect here is that some of these tips are only valid if you have a specific start with specific opponents.

I have got to disagree here. Leaving aside the fact that HoF is basically like bridge game, players starting from certain situation and managing the best possible outcome from there with all their skills, these tips help a lot in regular random map game as well.

It is true indeed, that I play random opponents and random (at least reasonably good) startings but basics are the same. I need to find a way to defeat AI being massively handicapped. HoF players have to master exactly what I need - to be almost perfectly effective by all means. I have gone a long way to beating Immortal in many games and my strategy stays weak now.

Dont know where it takes me, but until now going as Seraiel told me, is more promising than my previous games.


Seraiel: looking forward to Your opinion, is my situation hopeless there already and I should restart or is it worth playing? I think myself, if I can provoke Ragnar into war and sneak attack him to get iron, I can still get a game out of there. What You reckon?

 

[Robert FIN]

Is it possible to win Deity, K-Mod, AW, OCC, Raging Barbs, No Tech Trading game, hehehe ? Well, I think that everything can be possible !

 

[Seraiel]

Had a look at the save, these are the things I found:

• Persepolis is not working the Food. Note that there's a rule from S&T saying "always work the food" which of course is false, but it's a good rule . In this case, you're building a Forge, Forges are 3-5 pop-whips, rule of the thumb is that 1 = 2 , therefor the Pigs have a value of 11 . Even with the city having 2 that'd still be 7 , more than the Marble has, so working the Pigs and letting the city grow into would be better than working the Marble.
• I see lots of roads and a non-riverside plains-Cottage . Try to build as few roads as possible and try not to work Plains at all unless you have a good reason.
• Pasargadae has a Barracks and is building a Worker followed by a Library and an Archer. All of these choices are (carefully formulated) wrong.
  I already told you, try to queue only the next building. Picture is, Pasargadae needs that Food from the Vikings, so instead of the Barracks, you should have built 2 Immortals, and instead of everything else, you'll want a Monument :> . Don't think too far in advance, too many things can happen until then, try to think what's best now, what will help you now, and similar.
• You're running 60% slider but have a lot of Gold. Fix that, run 100% for as long as possible, try to raise more gold when it's running out when you see a good chance, there's no sense in having a ton of gold and not using it for anything.
• Edirne needs a City-Garrison because it's unhappy, whip an Archer now.
• Istanbul has unimroved corn and 2 Workers are chopping nereby, Food > chopping.
• You said that your opponents were too strong, but you're not building offensive Military in any of your cities. That Monestary in Susa is absolutely superflous (Monestaries are mostly a really bad building, the bonus is too low, the cost too high, Missionaries are only seldomly needed) and it should be Workboat followed by a Granary.
• Use the whip frequently.
• Improve your micro (i. e. Susa should work the Copper-Mine instead of the unimproved Forrest) .

If I find anything else I'll post it, but these should be the most important things. Lesson is to "how get more out of the cities that you already have" .

Seraiel

 

[Seraiel]

Seraiel: looking forward to Your opinion, is my situation hopeless there already and I should restart or is it worth playing? I think myself, if I can provoke Ragnar into war and sneak attack him to get iron, I can still get a game out of there. What You reckon?

I forgot answering this question:

No, situation isn't hopeless, I have beaten 10+ cities empires from only 3 cities with Elepult already.

You should take all that advice seriously though. Deity only allows very minor flaws and only few of them. What I found is already short before too much.

Seraiel

 

[dohh]

No, situation isn't hopeless, I have beaten 10+ cities empires from only 3 cities with Elepult already.

Seraiel

Jesus, this Deity is a pain. Sweating like hell. Please take a look I wot play any further before You can give me an advice. This is the BEST EVER deity game for me till far.
Managed to get tu music first and used GA tu bulb drama (maybe should had gone for golden age tho, as Ragnar went to war just a turn before)

I managed to get parthenon and great lib as well, I congured Suleiman to death, I will get Iron soon, but my army is now old to date. Opponents are strong civs.

Ragnar just went to war, I think this is the best moment to attack him. Please give advice how to mobilize army at maximum speed and what should it cointain of? The best would be to attack Ragnar in about 10-15 moves.

How to use great preast now? Bulbing theology is not he best atthe moment imo. Maybe just join city for money and hammers?

Also, being stubborn as hell with city management, You can take a look over cities as well. I know what You think about it, but I rly ca not live without the walls in border cities of both ends
View attachment Dohh6.CivBeyondSwordSave

than in advance, I really do much better-

 

[Seraiel]

Just read this post. Have no time to answer before 0 'o clock GMT.

I'd like you to calm down a little bit. I think I know how you feel, you just got "that game you waited for" , you "fought for" , you've "suffered" for it. Chances are there though that you'll lose it, so don't throw your computer out of the window should this happen. Remember that you can always achieve the same again, and with time, it'll get easier.

Sera