Is it viable to pump food with trade routes?

[Ergo Sum]

I have been experimenting with using trade routes almost entirely for food. Playing as the Dutch I had first one then eventually (on average) three different land routes feeding my (inland) capital; I ended up at size 15 in the capital by ~t100, ~30 by t200, and 50 by t300 with accompanying massive production/science (pics when/if I bother to load the game up). Having heard some people talking about how population is the single most important thing to grow, I decided to take this to an extreme. The big disadvantage being the gold you miss out on (and maybe the diplo padding against war hungry AIs who would rather not lose out on your gold?). In the early game I would argue this is competitive with granaries/water mills, especially considering the paltry gpt you get from them early on and the danger of barbs. At any rate I was able to make up for the lost gold in my Dutch game - this would mean focusing on Tithes, markets, banks, and specialists. YMMV.

SO given that I am no expert how do you judge this? Is this competitive? Or are dumb big cities just a distraction?

 

[budweiser]

I like to send a food caravan to the city (usually the cap) when I start running guild specialists to account for the extra food they consume. Before that I like to use them for the trade and diplo modifiers instead.

For growth, I have been targeting ToA early combined with Tradition and maybe Fertility Rights.

 

[Freyas]

I've found food trade routes to be one of the best things you can do with your trade routes. If I'm starving for gold, can't afford the happiness, or fulfilling a city state quest, I'll make external trade routes, but otherwise I generally am sending food (or hammers) internally. Growing my cities for science or sending hammers to help my late-founded cities catch up with infrastructure will generally give me more benefit than a few gpt from the trade route.

 

[SicklyAlbatross]

I'd say it's much easier to use internal routes in a tradition game simply because sending food to the capital translates into extra gold and as always science. You can also support much higher populations which will pay off with city connections.

In a liberty game I usually find that my cities are costing me money, due to the lack of gold on the map, if I don't use international routes my economy will be in the red. Roads simply allow your caravans from the capital to reach far off civilizations via your own cities and to provide quick troop movement, as long as the population is enough to pay for the number of road tiles I'm happy.

I like how it works out to be honest, traditional empires tend to be very insular and self sufficient, while liberty empires have to venture forth to find new trading opportunities.

 

[Ergo Sum]

I'd say it's much easier to use internal routes in a tradition game simply because sending food to the capital translates into extra gold and as always science. You can also support much higher populations which will pay off with city connections.

In a liberty game I usually find that my cities are costing me money, due to the lack of gold on the map, if I don't use international routes my economy will be in the red. Roads simply allow your caravans from the capital to reach far off civilizations via your own cities and to provide quick troop movement, as long as the population is enough to pay for the number of road tiles I'm happy.

I like how it works out to be honest, traditional empires tend to be very insular and self sufficient, while liberty empires have to venture forth to find new trading opportunities.

Provocative thought, though I find I simply do much better with Tradition nowadays, liberty leaves me without money, woeful population, and sluggish economy. That's probably a personal defect. But then it seems like liberty would be the case where food routes prove even more useful to catch up on lost pop.

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

It's funny, half the people seem to transfer food from the capitol, and half to the capitol.

I would think that the first would be the best, to quickly build up tiny cities, given it takes a lot more food to go from pop 12 to pop 13 than it does to get from, say 2 to 3.

On the other hand, in a tradition game, building up the capitol is nice because it's less of a happiness hit and the science % is better ... still have to think that building up your small cities quicker is better, though.

What's the mechanic, anyway -- anyone know exactly how much food/hammers go to the other civ? Something like half the city size?

Edit: I thought that the originating city lose the food/hammers ... it doesn't, I guess?! H'm

 

[Deau]

It is significantly more powerful for water maps than land maps (or well unless you get many coastals on a land map).

On 4 city trad opener where I neglect capital for 30 turns building settlers, I will typically use my first 1-2 caravans from satellites into capital but extremely rarely beyond that for inland capitals. Going from +20 FPT to +24 FPT for a single trade route is not competitive with the gold/beaker/diplomacy from intl routes.

 

[Deau]

It's funny, half the people seem to transfer food from the capitol, and half to the capitol.

I would think that the first would be the best, to quickly build up tiny cities, given it takes a lot more food to go from pop 12 to pop 13 than it does to get from, say 2 to 3.

On the other hand, in a tradition game, building up the capitol is nice because it's less of a happiness hit and the science % is better ... still have to think that building up your small cities quicker is better, though.

What's the mechanic, anyway -- anyone know exactly how much food/hammers go to the other civ? Something like half the city size?

Edit: I thought that the originating city lose the food/hammers ... it doesn't, I guess?! H'm

It depends on what you want to achieve. For instance, for CV, you need to manage wonders in early renaissance and on and this mostly rely on a strong capital for both science and, especially, hammers. Spreading the love will get your science up slightly faster after education but you won't have competitive enough HPT in a single city to hard build any wonder. If you send trade routes from satellite cities to capital, you achieve just that. On water maps, if you send your first wave of 3 routes of food to the capital and then swap them all to 3 routes of hammers in early renaissance, you will basically double your HPT as though you had a petra start.

Long story short, it depends on your game objectives or strategy as well as whether you can improve enough tiles to get the most out of the trade routes in either city.


What I've been slightly more of a fan lately is delay a 4th city "way late" (or at least what I would consider to be way late) and then send 1-3 trade routes for a single wave there to get it to par so that it does not really cripple my science and provides good empire-wide hammers for the long run. I did that recently with pachacuti and had my 5th city grow from size 1 to size 19 between T140 (late founded) and T235 (SV) and thanks to pachacuti's UA, the city was actually capable of building its own infrastructure significantly earlier than a typical civ.

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

Deau, do you know what the mechanic is for how many hammers/food per turn you get? And does it matter whether it's a caravan or cargo ship?

 

[SicklyAlbatross]

But then it seems like liberty would be the case where food routes prove even more useful to catch up on lost pop.

Later on definitely. I tend to take commerce in the majority of my liberty games so you eventually reach a position where money and happiness are no longer an issue so then it can be worthwhile to turn those trade routes inwards. I recently had a game as the Shoshone that had a lot of decent island chains off the main continents, so I was settling new cities all the way through the game. I could settle a new city grab a lot of great land and send two food and two production cargo ships, which led to virtually instant fully fledged cities.

 

[slowcar]

Deau, do you know what the mechanic is for how many hammers/food per turn you get? And does it matter whether it's a caravan or cargo ship?

ships double the amount. the base is dependent on the era.

 

[iggymnrr]

It is possible to ignore foreign routes for some time. A road connection to a connected and growing city will generate income. I just played the Mesopotamia map on emperor. It was a long time for foreign connections to develop. Even the map at satellites made land trade a bit dicey. Lots of open space for barbs still.

 

[dragonxxx]

I have been experimenting with using trade routes almost entirely for food. Playing as the Dutch I had first one then eventually (on average) three different land routes feeding my (inland) capital; I ended up at size 15 in the capital by ~t100, ~30 by t200, and 50 by t300 with accompanying massive production/science (pics when/if I bother to load the game up). Having heard some people talking about how population is the single most important thing to grow, I decided to take this to an extreme. The big disadvantage being the gold you miss out on (and maybe the diplo padding against war hungry AIs who would rather not lose out on your gold?). In the early game I would argue this is competitive with granaries/water mills, especially considering the paltry gpt you get from them early on and the danger of barbs. At any rate I was able to make up for the lost gold in my Dutch game - this would mean focusing on Tithes, markets, banks, and specialists. YMMV.

SO given that I am no expert how do you judge this? Is this competitive? Or are dumb big cities just a distraction?

How exactly do you make 50 citizens, and what do you need that many for?

P.S. Can you upload a screenshot of that town? I have never seen anything bigger than 35.

 

[tommynt]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=501378

size 30 cap in turn 158
and growing 1 size every 5 turns isnt something special - so this city was size 42 when game ended in space in turn 218

edit: this city did never get food from trade routes i think.

For me its pretty simple - low food sites gets caravans - otherwise (95% of time) external ones are just better - espacially as they make neightbours happy and spread religion - happy friends is what bnw is about ..

 

[Fire0rb]

How exactly do you make 50 citizens, and what do you need that many for?

P.S. Can you upload a screenshot of that town? I have never seen anything bigger than 35.

Look at this Deity challenge you will find a LOT of 45+ cities below turn 250
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=503424

The point of having such big cities is that you can run every specialist which gives huge amounts of bonus to the city (and science if you have securalism). Annother thing is the science you get from every citizin. In a science game you want cities as big as possible to get as much science as possible...

 

[uncle bulgaria]

I'd say it's essential for a 4 city tall empire.

I tend to split them, half internally spamming and half externally trading. All depends on my gold levels too. If I know I have an expensive round of upgrades or CS bribing then I'll start switching them to external routes

I massively prioritise coastal locations now.

I usually aim for the Temple of Artemis, growth based religion bonuses, food buildings and tradition tree (free aqueducts ftw). Get 2 cities up with the NC built then hit 3 and 4 which will always be boosted by trade routes to get them productive.

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

ships double the amount. the base is dependent on the era.

Is there a thread somewhere with the maths?

 

[chazzycat]

It's funny, half the people seem to transfer food from the capitol, and half to the capitol.

Good observation...I think this is one of the most critical strategic decisions to make in BNW. I've had good success both ways, in different situations. Some civs are clearly made to favor one or the other (France & Siam, for example should focus on the capital) but most of the time it's not obvious what the best choice is. There is a serious opportunity costs here as well with external routes. I like it because there are too many variables to have one ideal strategy.

 

[Martin Alvito]

The external routes get less and less potent for as the game goes on, which in turn means that and become viable options. The questions really boil down to:

- Are you going to have enough to rush key buildings without the external routes?
- How stunted are you for ?

Some general rules of thumb:

- Early routes should always be external on Deity. Never go internal until Aqueducts are in. Think about it this way: those internal routes are 40% less effective until then. Better to defer growth and take the from the route up front.

- Korea probably should always take the since you want to spam your cities full of specialist buildings and fill them.

- Coastal should make the switch (assuming you can defend the route) away from external earlier, all else equal.

- The more hostile your neighbors, the more you need routes with them. I'm not going to drop an external route with, say, Shaka or Genghis until I've bought them into several wars and preferably have the DoF.

 

[Tabarnak]

Pretty agree with Martin. Food trades are pretty powerful in mp games. For immortal and below, if you don't start with many civs around, this should be a serious option as well, especially if your satellite cities aren't rich in food but rich in hammers.

Once the first round of the 2 first caravans/cargos are done, the capital will likely be have finished or close to finish the NC. By that time, it's also a great idea to counsider 1 or 2 food trades to your capital to enhance the science rate.