Is morality dependent on religion?

Do you need religion to have a moral code?

  • Yes

    Votes: 17 9.9%
  • No

    Votes: 147 86.0%
  • Required Radioactive Monkey option

    Votes: 7 4.1%

  • Total voters
    171
CivGeneral said:
I have known an atheist on campus who used to be freinds with my Catholic ex-GF untill we broke up (The atheist began to start being mean to her two months before we broke up because of some stupid thing the atheist witness my ex-GF did, but thats as far as I can go). Today this atheist would often times antagonise my ex-GF (who I am still good freinds BTW) as well as acting mean to her. To me , that left me an image that atheists cannot be moral if they hurt their fellow neighbor.
You can't make a blanket statement for all atheists because of the actions of one man. It isn't fair. It wouldn't be fair if someone said the same thing about all Catholics (or all Catholic priests) because of the actions of one or several.

Since you don't know who is an atheist (or who is religious, for that matter) on the street, then wouldn't you assume that the people, be they whatever they may be, are acting morally because they are not stealing or murdering or pillaging? You could argue that some are adulterers behind closed doors, but then again, don't we all sin? Does that make us all immoral?
 
I make my own morals, free from religious influence.

CivGeneral said:
Still not convinced that morality is not dependent on religion and still not convinced that non-Religious people are capable of being moral.
You know me better then I do then?:lol:
 
@ CivGeneral -

Have you ever attended a public school? If so then surely you made a friend or two that wasn't religious. Even religious schools almost always have some non-religious members. Did all those people lie, cheat and steal or were they generally just like everyone else?

You yourself commented that non-religious people don't have any billboards labeling them as such. If they were all immoral types then they wouldn't need any billboard as their immorality, or lack of morality, would clearly set them apart. The fact that both groups do blend is evidence that they generally act with the same ethics as each other.

You also mentioned one person who is an atheist who antagonised and was mean to your ex-GF. I ask, is it really fair to judge the entire non-religious population of the planet by the actions of this one guy? Would you approve if we judged all catholics by the actions of some specific pedophile priests? Both stereotypes are unfair and don't represent the majority of either group.



CivGeneral said:
Still not convinced that morality is not dependent on religion and still not convinced that non-Religious people are capable of being moral.

This one will be easy.

1. I am a non-religious agnostic. We have had many discussions on this forum before and you are aware of my beliefs.

2. Disease, and the suffering and premature death it brings is bad. Using the logic and scientific tools that god gave us to help improve the quality of, and prolong the time of, human life is a moral act.

3. The scientists at Stanford University are working to cure these diseases. They have asked for help with their math calculations in an effort to speed their progress.

4. People who help them with their research are doing a moral act.

5. I am helping, so I am doing a moral act.


Conclusions: Morality is not dependent upon religion and a non-religious person is capable of being moral.
 
Is morality dependent on religion?

Certainly not.

My opinion:
Proper moral actions and attitudes are hardwired into the human
genetic memory. Religions just provide an 'icing on the cake' of
how to behave in a given society. Keep in mind that the current
theocratic religions are relatively new things...

Proper moral codes have existed long before islam and christ.

.
 
I feel that people who are not religious are incapable of being moral and acting moral. Mainly what I have seen. Here are some examples that I have noticed. Many atheists and non-religious people tend to support anything that is unChristian such as abortions, same-gender marrages, and euthenasia. Non religious people and atheist also practace immoral acts such as sex before marrage, using artifical birth control. This is just what I see from my eyes. I know that my words dont weigh heavely in an atheist majority forum, but these are just my opinions.

This is a somewhat fallacious argument. You can hardly claim evidence that atheists are immoral and hence morality stemmed from religion on the grounds that atheists do not obey a specific religion's moral code. This fits equally well with a moral atheist refusing to accept the modifications to a pre existing moral code that a religion has made to suit its own ends, especially those aspects of this modified code which are actively detrimental to human society.

Yes, there probably are atheists that reject the Christian moral code purely to annoy Christians, but similarly there are probably "Christians" who break every rule of the Christian code and then hypocritically preach that it is mortal sin to do so. You can't sweepingly state that all of a group are immoral for the actions of a few.

To take the actions you list above as categorically immoral, but based on the Christian moral code, not human morality, none of the above are that clear cut. As someone who is closer to atheism than religion, I would agree with you that abortion is immoral, however I do not agree that euthanasia, sex before marriage and same gender marriages are always, if ever immoral, and few things annoy me more, and have caused more harm to human society than the Catholic Church's idiotic claims that birth control is immoral.

It is the highly selective, and self serving nature of the Christian, and indeed many other religious codes, which make me strongly think they are not original, but have had religious doctrine snuck into them. Their lack of consistency is one of the most glaring signs of this. Why does Christianity not condemn the wearing of multicoloured clothing with the same vehemance it does birth control? The Bible clearly states that the former is a sin, but I can find no mention of the latter. Why do Christians not preach that it is acceptable to sell your children into slavery? The Bible again clearly states that this is morally acceptable.

The reason is of course that slavery is now recognised as morally unacceptable, but based on an atheist, and not a religious moral code. It would hinder the spread of Christianity to preach things which are now blatantly immoral, so they discard those bits of a supposedly divine moral code which can no longer be hidden within the moral code humanty has built up over the years. Similarly those rules which are blatantly pointless are abandoned in an attempt to make it less obvious that material superfluous to morality has been buried in the code by religion.

For more obvious examples of self serving "religious morality", how about apostasy (the mortal sin of thinking for one's self), or the apparent moral importance of giving money to the church. These have no place in morality.

Atheism not only produced the first moral code, but is a better source for it than any religion, since the code produced is uncorrupted by religious dogma or human greed. It serves for the benefit of humanity as a whole, not merely for the benefit of the upper echelons of a religious organisation.
 
Morality can most certainely exist without religon. Early religons had very little to do with morality the first codefied moral code had little to do with religon. later on with Chrstianity and Islam and such the morals were incoparated into the religon to serve as a even greater codification. Morals are created by society and what is benefical to the society and individual. Humans invent both morals and religons. One does not invent the other.
 
Your logic says that unless someone can name a moral civilisation free from religion, then morals are only possible with religion already in place.

In that case, unless you can name us an amoral religion, then religion is only possible with morals already in place.
 
silver 2039 said:
Morality can most certainely exist without religon. Early religons had very little to do with morality the first codefied moral code had little to do with religon. later on with Chrstianity and Islam and such the morals were incoparated into the religon to serve as a even greater codification. Morals are created by society and what is benefical to the society and individual. Humans invent both morals and religons. One does not invent the other.

I am sorry, but what early religions found moral, was moral to their society, not yours.

So, lets bottom line this out. What we refer to as early "morals" are we defining as "rules" for that society? Were religions the first rules/law setting institutions in history?

Take for example the earliest set of laws (or morals) we have reference to: Hammurabi's Laws: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/hamcode.html

This set of laws is rife with religious reference:

The god of a city was originally owner of its land, which encircled it with an inner ring of irrigable arable land and an outer fringe of pasture, and the citizens were his tenants. The god and his viceregent, the king, had long ceased to disturb tenancy, and were content with fixed dues in naturalia, stock, money or service.

And it is obvious that religion was a vitally important part of this code as all contracts and oaths were completed and sealed by an oath to God and King.

So if one views the question of which came first, morality or religion, I am still going to have to say that for me, the evidence is on the side of religion as a driving factor for morality and/or law in how we run our societies down through history.
 
MobBoss said:
And it is obvious that religion was a vitally important part of this code as all contracts and oaths were completed and sealed by an oath to God and King.

So if one views the question of which came first, morality or religion, I am still going to have to say that for me, the evidence is on the side of religion as a driving factor for morality and/or law in how we run our societies down through history.

So have you changed your opinion, or are you just stating things differently? I don't think anybody has said that religion hasn't been a big factor in the morality of societies.

What you were saying before was that morality isn't possible without religion. That without the input of religion, it is not possible to have morals. That the timeline went animals acting on instinct only, then those animals/protohumans developed religion, and developing that religion is what allowed them to make moral choices, and thus be proper humans. Does that mean other animals might develop religion, and then get morality too? Does that mean that non-human social animals that appear to have moral behaviour, but don't have a sufficiently advanced language to actually codify it or invent religion, aren't actually recognising certain behaviours as being wrong for them?
 
CivGeneral said:
Still not convinced that morality is not dependent on religion and still not convinced that non-Religious people are capable of being moral.

This is the most ignorant thing I've ever seen from you, Civgeneral. Actually, it's one of the only ignorant things I've ever seen from you.

I also find it quite insulting.
 
sanabas said:
So have you changed your opinion, or are you just stating things differently? I don't think anybody has said that religion hasn't been a big factor in the morality of societies.

I still think morality stems from religion. I think what is and is not moral is up for much speculation.

What you were saying before was that morality isn't possible without religion.

I think the morality of the "do unto others" type of golden rule most certainly isnt possible without religion and even when athiests espouse such golden rules, its origination is ultimately from religion, not some instinctual or genetic map. In fact, I would readily say that such a behavior would be in direct conflict with some instinctual or ancestral survival behavior.
 
I believe the two are independent. See attached image.
Morality.jpg
 
Veritass said:
I believe the two are independent. See attached image.
View attachment 129216

Uhm, the attached image does nothing to prove your statement. At least for me it doesnt. Care to explain?
 
MobBoss said:
I think the morality of the "do unto others" type of golden rule most certainly isnt possible without religion and even when athiests espouse such golden rules, its origination is ultimately from religion, not some instinctual or genetic map. In fact, I would readily say that such a behavior would be in direct conflict with some instinctual or ancestral survival behavior.

I disagree. Altruistic behaviors do exist in animal tribes. Richard Dawkins, in 'the selfish gene', showed that doing to others what you would like them to do to you was a viable strategy for survival. And these behaviors are mostly seen in simian animals... So I think it is pretty safe to assume proto-humans had them too.
 
Masquerouge said:
I disagree. Altruistic behaviors do exist in animal tribes. Richard Dawkins, in 'the selfish gene', showed that doing to others what you would like them to do to you was a viable strategy for survival. And these behaviors are mostly seen in simian animals... So I think it is pretty safe to assume proto-humans had them too.

Uhm...last I checked chimps do cannabalize their own. Soooo?
 
MobBoss said:
Uhm...last I checked chimps do cannabalize their own. Soooo?

What has that got to do with anything? I was not saying animals uphold our cultural taboo on antropophagy, I was pointing that the fact that altruistic behaviours exist in the animal kingdom invalidate your point that the "do unto others" isn't possible without religion.
 
MobBoss said:
Very weak argument. People dont have to defend their nation, if no one is invading. People dont invade another nation because of love - its because they want what the other people have.
That certainly can come from love! "My family/people/nation is poor and starving, while those [nationality] folks are living it good, let's invade them and take what is rightfully ours.

Those sentiments certainly require love.
 
MobBoss said:
Uhm...last I checked chimps do cannabalize their own. Soooo?

In some human cultures cannibalization is also allowed, so what is your point? Be reminded that in the thread 'morality' refers to any self-policing system of conduct, not your specific one.
 
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