Is Piety even worth it for cultural victories?

[Dogmouth]

temples that give u more gold like a extra bank and policy cost reduction. i find it hard to pass up, but on the other hand commerce is pretty dam good now with +2 from every lux, always brings a smile to my face....geddit.

Commerce is awesome now. It has a good opener, a decent closer that's synergistic with rationalism, one of the best happiness policies, and a production bonus that's fantastic on water maps. Mercantilism is also amazing. It's synergistics with the opener and the closer. You get much more gold with commerce, and your gold goes much further.

 

[Cromagnus]

Great job quoting me out of context.

I knew your main point had nothing to do with the pyramids. I'm just saying I wouldn't build it. Not sure how that's out of context. I just wasn't responding to the main point of your post.

 

[swishizzle]

I think Piety has become extremely situational. I had a moderately wide Mayan empire (7 cities on a small map) and I made it work. I used Mosques and Holy Warriors and went through Piety. Organized Religion gave me 14 more faith per turn, so that was decent. I was able to build wonders in 6 out of my 7 cities, so Reformation was helpful. I ended up winning handily in pretty much every respect, so it was fine.

The biggest problem I have with Piety is that it seems confused. It wants to help religion, which works well for wide; if you go wide, however, you're usually not picking up too many wonders, especially in multiple cities. I had to cater my play around the tree and overall, didn't feel that I was getting any great benefits like I'd get from other trees, namely Rationalism. I didn't once put a Holy Site down, nor was I making enough happiness or gpt for Mandate of Heaven or Theocracy to be worth it.

As others have said, I've actually gone Rationalism for cultural victories to keep up in tech just to get some key wonders (ET, SOH, etc.). I've actually won a culture victory going Tradition, Liberty, Honor, Commerce, and Freedom. I'd say that it's no longer a handicap to you if you don't choose it for culture victories.

 

[iconocast]

religion is working better for wide emps more shrines/temples. but after patch and the new national wonder ( grand temple iirc ) is added it could change dramaticly

 

[seancolorado]

My most successful cultural games have always followed this route:

Unlock and finish Tradition, Unlock and complete every Piety policy except Theocracy, Unlock and finish Freedom.

I don't save policies so if I don't reach Freedom in time then I pick either Patronage, Honor, or Commerce depending on strategy most relevant for the situation but, honestly, it doesn't really matter at that point in the game unless you are really playing the city-states hard (Patronage); geographically sandwiched against aggressive enemies (Honor); or are struggling with cash (Commerce). I tend to side with Commerce first because of the science benefits. Patronage offers a science policy as well but that requires you to be chummy with city-states and that's not always a given.

I would have to imagine that there is a more efficient way to do it because I've experimented so little with cultural games. Still, my same-old-strategy works really, really well for me so I have no reason to change. My only strict rule is that I try to finish Freedom as soon as I get Religious Tolerance in Piety because the Freedom finisher is crucial for the cultural game. Golden ages = culture

 

[seancolorado]

As for Piety beyond what I just said, I never use it.

 

[vexing]

if you want to see piety shine, play a culture game as arabia.
it's a bit overpowered, but with a good start desert folklore + petra can make for a ridiculous capital where you're getting enough great prophets that the finisher will be a huge boost.

 

[Buccaneer]

As for Piety beyond what I just said, I never use it.

Off-topic but your username hits home for me. Not only do I live in Colorado but my son's name is Sean. Welcome.

 

[crawf0rd]

(I'm the maker of the piety buff mod)

My approach to modding the game is that If I think a particular thing is misbalanced, I fix it. If I feel it is something many people gripe about, I turn it into a mod and put it on the workshop. If you were to play my copy of civ 5, you would notice numerous differences. Sure it feels kinda cheap playing with non-original stats, but the devs aren't perfect. They don't know how things will turn out. If they made a civ that couldn't choose social policies, but instead got twice the border expansion rate, would it be fair to change them? Is it cheating to try to fix what I think are mistakes? IMO, piety is not as good an option as rationalism. So I tried to make it better in my eyes. Those who downloaded and use my mod agree. If, say, people were using it in GOTM, I would understand them being labelled a cheater, but it is their single-player experience. Until they teach the AI to complain about balance, let people play the game how they want to.

 

[curwen]

at deity level the problem is to get great artist over great scientist so you can win i generaly try not to get more than 3 GS (not counting gift from CS, i generaly plant the 1st one) as all other GP are GA except for 1 GE (that i preciously keep for utopia if i ever get it early). And that does not count the GA i buy with faith.
so
1) i do not have so many science specialist (and it hurt science output... but i am in continuous GA from when i finish freedom to end) so "beaming to freedom" is a dream (but if you have a way i would love it i only win 1/4 games in average... but i generaly try to do a culture win)
2) i love sidney opera and so make nearly always my capital on a coast when i can (give 1 free doctrine ina ddition to +50% in the capital where i build all national onder and have planted at least 4 monument... at the end means you can start building utopia 15 turn before as you do not know what to build between radio tower and utopia ...except bomber) i generaly get a doctrin every 8-10 turn at this stage). A great advantage (like oracle ) is that IA does not build it asap ...(can be said for christ also ... but if IA can build chris it seems i always beat it on SO)... and 15 turn earlier is the difference betweena winning and losing...
3) i would love to build a wonder in all my 3/4 cities .... i am generaly content with the ones i can build in my capital ... and sometimes one in the 2nd city .... even with realoading game beating the IA to it is hard enough.

 

[kamex]

if you want to see piety shine, play a culture game as arabia.
it's a bit overpowered, but with a good start desert folklore + petra can make for a ridiculous capital where you're getting enough great prophets that the finisher will be a huge boost.

This will be my next game. Thanks for the tip. Sounds great!

 

[budweiser]

Cermonial Burial combined with Holy Order (cheaper missionaries) allows you to spam your religion to other cities for +1 Happiness each. Combine with Mandate of Heaven for more culture. Because after a while, what are you going to do with all that faith you make? You have to put it to work outside your borders.

The key is more faith faster and thats what the Piety tree gives you.

 

[adsin15]

For cultural vics I usually go:

2 into tradition first (for aristocracy to build early wonder. Either Stonehenge for religion or Oracle for free policy. Both is ideal.), then finish Liberty (use free GP for GEngineer. Save for Sistine Chapel. This is a must have wonder.), then do all of the Piety tree. (14 policies total so far)

Now either during or immediately after finishing the Piety Tree you should have 4 cities with 4 amphitheatres built while you get the Acoustics tech. At this time you should immediately throw 1 policy into Tradition again for Legalism. (15 total Policies so far) This will give you 4 Opera Houses for free in your 4 cities. Now you can immediately begin building the Hermitage when it becomes available.

Now with the Liberty and Piety trees completed you're probably going to want to finish Tradition asap for the 4 free aqueducts and growth bonus. Your 4 cities will probably all be at around 15 population now and stagnating pretty hard. Tradition will breathe new life into your cities at this point.

18 total policies now, 3 completed trees. At this time you should also be planning on building Cristo Redentor and eventually the Sydney Opera House.

Now comes the hard part for me. What to do next? If I have a few CSs nearby with good bonuses I might go Patronage. Patronage opens up a possible diplomatic vic (unless of course Greece or Austria survives into the atomic age) which is always a good back up to have going if you are going cultural victory.

I usually take Commerce for my 4th tree. Freedom, Autocracy and Order probably aren't available yet which only leaves Honor, Patronageand Commerce. Rationalism is out because I already choose Piety. Commerice is an amazing tree even if you only have 1 (or none) costal cities. The finisher alone is worth the two wasted policies.

24 Total Policies.

For my 5th Tree I typically pick Order when going for Cultural Vic. My Science and Production are usually hurting late in the game and order solves both those problems. Plus the gold savings on buildings combined with the infastructure savings from Commerce are just awesome.

I've found that Freedom isn't that great for cultural vic. Order is better even though it doesn't have any policies that directly improve culture. '

 

[seancolorado]

I've found that Freedom isn't that great for cultural vic. Order is better even though it doesn't have any policies that directly improve culture. '

I disagree. I think you have to get Freedom as soon as possible when you play cultural. Increase in great people, increase in base yield from great tile improvements, and - the most important of them all - golden ages increased by 50%. The golden age is key because you are producing more culture. This is especially important if you don't manage to get Chichen Itza and/or Sistine Chapel (although you might consider a different victory if that happens...). And you get to buy great artists. In the middle of the game you place them on your land. Towards the end you use them for golden ages to have a long string of them.

 

[adsin15]

I disagree. I think you have to get Freedom as soon as possible when you play cultural. Increase in great people, increase in base yield from great tile improvements, and - the most important of them all - golden ages increased by 50%. The golden age is key because you are producing more culture. This is especially important if you don't manage to get Chichen Itza and/or Sistine Chapel (although you might consider a different victory if that happens...). And you get to buy great artists. In the middle of the game you place them on your land. Towards the end you use them for golden ages to have a long string of them.

The finisher is the only Freedom Tree ability that is really useful for cultural vic. It sucks to plop 5 useless policies into a tree just for that.

When you consider the openers for Order and Autocracy vs the Freedom Opener its literally no contest. +1 happiness per city or -33% military upkeep (usually 50-100 GPT at that point in the game) is just insanely helpful to your empire.

At least that's my opinion anyway.

 

[Moriarte]

The finisher is the only Freedom Tree ability that is really useful for cultural vic. It sucks to plop 5 useless policies into a tree just for that.

When you consider the openers for Order and Autocracy vs the Freedom Opener its literally no contest. +1 happiness per city or -33% military upkeep (usually 50-100 GPT at that point in the game) is just insanely helpful to your empire.

At least that's my opinion anyway.

Could you amplify your opinion?

To me, +2 culture per wonder. +25% to artist birth, +100% great tile yields, longer golden ages, happyness and upkeep bonuses are just what is needed for cultural gameplay.

Being on the topic of cultural gameplay: what cultural bonuses are there in autocracy and order?

 

[budweiser]

Being on the topic of cultural gameplay: what cultural bonuses are there in autocracy and order?

Order has +1 happy per city in the opener. Autocracy has soemthing where you get culture when you take an enemy city, steal their art works.

 

[Arachnofiend]

+1 happiness per city isn't as useful when you're only running 1-4 cities. Autocracy requires funneling resources into big time militarization when you could be using those to create more culture (though I could see it being used as Monty or Askia).

 

[seancolorado]

The finisher is the only Freedom Tree ability that is really useful for cultural vic. It sucks to plop 5 useless policies into a tree just for that.

When you consider the openers for Order and Autocracy vs the Freedom Opener its literally no contest. +1 happiness per city or -33% military upkeep (usually 50-100 GPT at that point in the game) is just insanely helpful to your empire.

At least that's my opinion anyway.

Here is why I think Freedom still generates the most culture: Golden ages greatly increase your cultural output. You're talking about the difference between winning and losing a cultural victory if you can't catch up with a science powerhouse rival. Longer golden ages, and ability to purchase great artists means towards the end of the game you can have an unlimited string of extra culture and that is very important. You have two social policies revolving around playing the specialists and if you are in a sticky situation you can op for Universal Suffrage. The 8 units maintenance free essentially means your entire army is being paid for and allows you to build a few more units without losing money meaning you can properly defend yourself against civs with the science, and therefore military, advantage

 

[vexing]

freedom and piety are the two best trees for culture if you're trying to finish quickly. there's no way you're finishing faster with rationalism instead of piety or one of the industrial alternatives.