Is Piety even worth it for cultural victories?

[adsin15]

I forgot about the ability to purchase Great Artists. I suppose that is a significant feature of the Freedom Tree.

However I would make the case that the ability to purchase Great Engineers through the Order Tree can ensure you build the Sidney Opera House or even the CN Tower which is just simply the most amazing wonder in the entire game.

I'll give Freedom another look but I still think Order is better.

 

[Arachnofiend]

If you're far enough along the tree to get the CN Tower you are either going to lose the game or more likely to get a science victory than a culture victory at this point.

 

[Moriarte]

I forgot about the ability to purchase Great Artists. I suppose that is a significant feature of the Freedom Tree.

However I would make the case that the ability to purchase Great Engineers through the Order Tree can ensure you build the Sidney Opera House or even the CN Tower which is just simply the most amazing wonder in the entire game.

I'll give Freedom another look but I still think Order is better.

Why not take GE from Leaning Tower or Liberty and buy 2 Artists with faith for 40 turns of golden age?

 

[Buccaneer]

freedom and piety are the two best trees for culture if you're trying to finish quickly. there's no way you're finishing faster with rationalism instead of piety or one of the industrial alternatives.

This. It would be kinda cliche to say that the master has spoken, but...the master has spoken.

 

[seancolorado]

If you're far enough along the tree to get the CN Tower you are either going to lose the game or more likely to get a science victory than a culture victory at this point.

This. CN Tower is broken. It comes way too late in the game to make an impact on the victory for any civ in any desired victory.

As for other wonders, I think there are only 3 key wonders for a cultural victory:

1. Chichen Itza
2. Sistine Chapel
3. Cristo Redentor

Not The Oracle, not Sydney Opera House, not Taj Mahal, not the Louvre and certainly not CN Tower

 

[Cromagnus]

This. CN Tower is broken. It comes way too late in the game to make an impact on the victory for any civ in any desired victory.

As for other wonders, I think there are only 3 key wonders for a cultural victory:

1. Chichen Itza
2. Sistine Chapel
3. Cristo Redentor

Not The Oracle, not Sydney Opera House, not Taj Mahal, not the Louvre and certainly not CN Tower

Alhambra is pretty nice, I just don't like how out of the way it is for me usually. But 20% is pretty huge, even if you're not OCC'ing it. I agree, the Oracle is only worth it if it's still there somehow later. SOH comes too late, and CN Tower is ludicrous. The Louvre isn't that hard to get, and 2 GAs is a big boost. I'd say it makes a big difference if you don't get it. Especially because you may have had to pop out some GEs along the way.

 

[tommynt]

U guys are arguiing WAY too general.

there is a huge difference if u want a Cult win at about turn 205+- or just want win.

Obviously if some1 doesnt plan on wining sub t220 things like soh, cr are on the plan.

But "perfect" gameplay with a fast win as goal just doesnt involve these.

Fast win strategy 1:
occ with GREAT Land (some land which allows you get faith - either some nw close or lot of desert tiles seem perfect):
finish Tradition, finish peity, start on patronage (maybe 3 till the tech boost), jump into freedom
fast win strategy 2:
4 Cities (or 3 + 1 conquered cap) Tradition starter, liberty till reduces sp costs, peity, freedom

with every strategy u ll want to focus on, in this order:
science!
aly CS, espacially culture ones
build the important wonders
faith
culture

It is NOT important to boost culture early, u dont have an artist in temple right away, u just do want to get to the important techs which grant u the important wonders fast, build then and espacially go into indu era for freedom tree.
Once indu era:
now its time to start a neverending ga, fill 5 artists in every city (u should have cathedrals) run through freedom tree in 20-25 turns spawn meanwhile GA like mad (dont forget to renew ga!) and then just run through rest of sp with ga boost 4 artist slots and the huge landmark, with peeking at 1000+ culture things like CR and even soh re just not needed - u ll end WAY before u get close to them, if u tech really high u might get to statue of liberty which helps boost utopia by like 2 turns

 

[curwen]

What use is CN in a cultural victory and at deity ???? I made it in my last game because i had nothing better to build (because for ONCE i was at peace (really rare at deity) but who care for +1 happiness and pop in the few cities you have where all artist slot are already filled ???

And about the tommynt start... at deity i wonder how you manage to always get cathedral (i got it once in more than 50 games)... i am happy to be allowed to get a religion at deity (generaly need a early religious CS near OR the "good" natural wonder near) and when i do AND going all religious i am happy to fund the last (sometime the 5th if i am really lucky) religion .... so i do NOT have a great choice and do with whatever is available (+1 culture/ 4 follower outside your civ is a great one btw... if you have a continent wo religions...).
Moreover i agree you need science but try not to get to many GS ... or go for a science victory. every GS you get is 1 less GA (or idealy GE ...) later on...

remember that for a great cultural victory at deity in the late game you need your capital with 4 artists ... 3+ tile giving 12 culture (freedomx2) all the cultural point you can steal/beg (national wonder, religion) the best modifier (ya +50% SA +33% piety ....) to finish before the runaway civ get his spaceship ... (No atomic bombing is a bad idea... evrytime (2/3) i tried it nearly everyother civ declared war on me .... and they bombed me back )

and at least at deity you NEED freedom... double cultural output of all cultural tiles ... (so generaly like +24 cultural (if you have ONLY 4 tiles) x 2,5 (SA/piety/GA ...) =60 culture /turn at least PLUS you can buy GA with piety (you buy at least 2) PLUS increase GA duration by 50% (+20% culture output for 4 turn/GA ...)

i do not even count happiness and the fact you need the decrease in food consumption because of all the specialist you have (you need culture AND science specialists in all your cities ... and perhaps even some production one if you did not manage to get a GE earlier...)

 

[budweiser]

Whats a good turn number to shoot for on entering the Industrial era?

I made it on t170 last night, Oxford> archeology.

 

[Buccaneer]

While the irascible tommynt is nearly unreadable, his points are solid if you can get them.

 

[curwen]

imo tommynt never tried his strat at deity... the "u should have cathedral" is a dream for most (all?) civ at deity level (or really lucky) and so its start is a bit late imo. (plus the fact that wonder race is really hard at deity). but yes freedom can be a great ending civ for a GE.
everyone agree that piety is also a must have for a cultural victory (33% increase in at least your capital , 10% less in civic cost ... and some faith/faith reduction cost to help your religion (or buy religious building if you got none and just exploit another civ religion) )

 

[Moriarte]

imo tommynt never tried his strat at deity...

Are you 100% sure he is talking about Deity?

Trying to approach Deity game defensively and with culture in mind will either get you killed, or AI will succeed in space race. And in some rare occasions you'll be able to win @ around turn 280. Which is no way consistent and shouldn't be considered as a solid strategy.

If you are struggling with Deity cultural, perhaps you can try approaching these games from a different angle:

1. Dominate the world, but leave last enemy capital alive.
2. Complete 5 policy trees.

 

[tommynt]

Yes I was not talking about deity - but what does deity change?

ai ll be faster to grab wonders and religion, but depending on civ you should be able to compete at least on one of either.
AI doesnt outtech babs early on fe.

Playing aggressive shifts ai wonder focus back - so just keep dowing it and grab some wonders yourself ...

Also there arent so many much needed wonders - sistine is strong and you ll want this +% spawn rate of dudes wonder - 1 u can get with liberty finisher
you ll want CI aswell - but its on your tech route and u should really try build it with focused production.
guess its in fact most important wonder.

Apart that just abuse ai strength for yourself, 2 good ways:
1. grab its money
2. take its cities

a VERY imporant key to be succesful at deity is alying CS, all types are strong but prefered ones are military and cultural ones.
So focus on getting some early units to kill barb camps and after that look out for these quests ...

ah btw with a strong military u might even take some cap which stole an important wonder

 

[Wargizmo]

If you're far enough along the tree to get the CN Tower you are either going to lose the game or more likely to get a science victory than a culture victory at this point.

Haha you just described 90% of my cultural wins, even if I go piety/freedom I still most of the time could have just gone for diplo or science and got the win earlier. Culture is definitely the hardest victory condition.

 

[BlackWizard]

When to start GA with GA instead of building landmark? I would say when you have 2-4 unfinished policies. Have anyone done some calculations concerning this?

 

[tommynt]

When to start GA with GA instead of building landmark? I would say when you have 2-4 unfinished policies. Have anyone done some calculations concerning this?

way more early as 20t before end

when modifiers are up (even more generaly said when in indu era and rushing the freedom tree) GA is definatly >>> landmark.
I usually try hard to get a 2nd happy GA (or delay 1. one for long if happy starved) and then go over into a neverending one

But as written above CI is just needed for a fast win, long GA boost is huge

 

[BlackWizard]

way more early as 20t before end

That's very fast last policies. One policy faster than every 5 turns if I understood correctly and you refer to my opinion of starting Golden Ages when you have 2-4 policies left before starting UP.

Edit. If you miss CI do you prefer landmarks differently? It's usually hard to build on deity

 

[Genghis.Khan]

Chichen Itza is not a critical wonder for Cultural VC... Cultural VC is just beeline Acoustics...

 

[chazzycat]

how is it not critical...during a golden age you earn 20% more culture. For a fast culture win you want pretty much the entire mid-late game to be in a golden age.

 

[iconocast]

Chichen Itza is not a critical wonder for Cultural VC... Cultural VC is just beeline Acoustics...

the reason its essential for a cv is becasue golden ages are essential for cv now