Is religion really gone?

[denogginizer]

I read this article today, and makes me wonder if religion is still in the game in some form...

http://www.atomicgamer.com/articles/1088/civilization-v-preview-2

"And one major change is in religion; it’s not so deeply integrated into everything the way it was in Civ 4, and it doesn’t feel like it’s taking over the gameplay. It’s still there, but it’s got a little more of a backseat role."

 

[12agnar0k]

no its not. Atleast certainly not in the way it was in Civ4, it may well be a part of the Social tree.

 

[AriochIV]

They've explicitly said in several interviews that religion is gone. There is a "Piety" tree in the new social policy system that's essentially the new version of the Civics, but that's just unlocking religion-oriented bonuses with culture points.

 

[Schuesseled]

you'll be able to adopt relion like policies, but you can't found buddism and send out missionaries to convert the planet anymore.

 

[AfterShafter]

Anyone else getting a very Nietzschean vibe from this thread?...

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

One of the very first things I'm hoping to Mod-Real World religions (with sects) but without the awful preset bonuses/penalties to diplomacy!

Aussie.

 

[Ex-Cop]

Good riddance

 

[DalekDavros]

Aussie: I had thoughts along the same line, until I realized that there wouldn't really be anything left for religion to do. Assuming that generic religious buildings (temples, etc.) still exist, Civ V seems to have the implicit assumption that each civilization has a religion (or religions, in the case of a social policy like free religion), so the only reason I can see to give the religions explicit names is if it matters whether or not you and your neighbors have the same religion (i.e., the Civ IV diplomacy bonuses that we don't want back).

To mod religion into Civ V in a meaningful way, I think that the religions would have to be genuinely distinct from each other. Basically, that would be re-adding a civics system for religion. Not necessarily a bad thing, but potentially difficult to get right without totally changing the dynamic of the game.

Founding religions in Civ IV was also problematic, as it got into situations where the other players beat you to all of the religions and won't spread any to you, which was both annoying and unrealistic.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Aussie: I had thoughts along the same line, until I realized that there wouldn't really be anything left for religion to do. Assuming that generic religious buildings (temples, etc.) still exist, Civ V seems to have the implicit assumption that each civilization has a religion (or religions, in the case of a social policy like free religion), so the only reason I can see to give the religions explicit names is if it matters whether or not you and your neighbors have the same religion (i.e., the Civ IV diplomacy bonuses that we don't want back).

To mod religion into Civ V in a meaningful way, I think that the religions would have to be genuinely distinct from each other. Basically, that would be re-adding a civics system for religion. Not necessarily a bad thing, but potentially difficult to get right without totally changing the dynamic of the game.

Founding religions in Civ IV was also problematic, as it got into situations where the other players beat you to all of the religions and won't spread any to you, which was both annoying and unrealistic.

Dalekdavros, the solution to the problem can be found in the following question-when you think *Christian*, what do you think of? Mennonites? Roman Catholics? Coptics? Protestants? Eastern Orthodox? Baptists? Calvinists? Maybe even Catharists or the Fundamentalists? You see what I'm getting at? They're all Christian, & they share common beliefs, but they're all different sects with differing approaches to Christianity-differences which I believe can be represented in Civ5 (& yes, even Civ4).
By the same token, when you think Muslim, are you thinking Wahabbi? Sunni? Shi'ite? Maybe some other liberal or fundamentalist sect? The same could be said for Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism or Taoism. That is how to differentiate religions-by allowing either the individual players-or only the founder of the faith-to dictate the *rules* by which the religion operates at any given time. Perhaps a civ can even generate a schism to form their own sect of the same religion-where *they* dictate the rules instead?

By the same token, the solution to founding religions is not to have them tied to discovering techs. Founding a religion shouldn't be about a chance early discovery of Mysticism or Monotheism-it should be about a civ pursuing a religious strategy from the start of the game-building Animist Shrines, Sacred Groves & National Temples *before* any of the "major" religions ever become available.

This is the approach that they should have taken in Civ5-*not* simply abandoning religion because it was "too hard"!

Aussie.

 

[Tomice]

Dalekdavros, the solution to the problem can be found in the following question-when you think *Christian*, what do you think of? Mennonites? Roman Catholics? Coptics? Protestants? Eastern Orthodox? Baptists? Calvinists? Maybe even Catharists or the Fundamentalists? You see what I'm getting at? They're all Christian, & they share common beliefs, but they're all different sects with differing approaches to Christianity-differences which I believe can be represented in Civ5 (& yes, even Civ4).
By the same token, when you think Muslim, are you thinking Wahabbi? Sunni? Shi'ite? Maybe some other liberal or fundamentalist sect? The same could be said for Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism or Taoism. That is how to differentiate religions-by allowing either the individual players-or only the founder of the faith-to dictate the *rules* by which the religion operates at any given time. Perhaps a civ can even generate a schism to form their own sect of the same religion-where *they* dictate the rules instead?

By the same token, the solution to founding religions is not to have them tied to discovering techs. Founding a religion shouldn't be about a chance early discovery of Mysticism or Monotheism-it should be about a civ pursuing a religious strategy from the start of the game-building Animist Shrines, Sacred Groves & National Temples *before* any of the "major" religions ever become available.

This is the approach that they should have taken in Civ5-*not* simply abandoning religion because it was "too hard"!

Aussie.

Wow

I like the way you're seeing it!

Basically, if I play in a certain way, building temples and taking some social policies, I can found a religion. And I can adjust the religion to have certain benefits, like crusader units or a happiness bonus.

Other players might take my religion voluntarily, to please me and because they like the benefits. Or I could send missionaries. I could dictate them my religion by making them a vassal state.
Or they could form a sect of my religion, e.g. a more peaceful interpretation, basically giving them an own religion and a holy city.

Religions would no longer "happen" because I research a tech, but a religion of world influence has to be "built".

I love your ideas. So much potential in them!

But, I guess this could turn out to be a political scandal

And, it would be very hard to balance!

 

[12agnar0k]

Dalekdavros, the solution to the problem can be found in the following question-when you think *Christian*, what do you think of? Mennonites? Roman Catholics? Coptics? Protestants? Eastern Orthodox? Baptists? Calvinists? Maybe even Catharists or the Fundamentalists? You see what I'm getting at? They're all Christian, & they share common beliefs, but they're all different sects with differing approaches to Christianity-differences which I believe can be represented in Civ5 (& yes, even Civ4).
By the same token, when you think Muslim, are you thinking Wahabbi? Sunni? Shi'ite? Maybe some other liberal or fundamentalist sect? The same could be said for Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism or Taoism. That is how to differentiate religions-by allowing either the individual players-or only the founder of the faith-to dictate the *rules* by which the religion operates at any given time. Perhaps a civ can even generate a schism to form their own sect of the same religion-where *they* dictate the rules instead?

By the same token, the solution to founding religions is not to have them tied to discovering techs. Founding a religion shouldn't be about a chance early discovery of Mysticism or Monotheism-it should be about a civ pursuing a religious strategy from the start of the game-building Animist Shrines, Sacred Groves & National Temples *before* any of the "major" religions ever become available.

This is the approach that they should have taken in Civ5-*not* simply abandoning religion because it was "too hard"!

Aussie.

Some good thoughts to include religion in an expansion pack. Not tying religion in with Techs is a good idea. In Civ5 we will be playing the "early rush strategies" in attempting to find and settle next to natural wonders, Perhaps in the expansion this "strategy" could tie in with Religion, i.e if you rush to the "Natural Stone Circle Wonder" you will eventually become druidic, if you rush to a "Natural Volcano Wonder" perhaps your civilisation will grow to worship the Volcanic God's.

Plenty of room for religion in Civ5, I certainly don't think it should be anything like Civ4, but if we utilise features of Civ5 we should be able to make an inntuitive religion system for Civ5, not for vanilla, but to be released in a coming expansion back or possibly a "religion DLC".

We should certainly put this idea in Jon-Shafers hands and perhaps he can make something of it that will be enjoyable for all. I really like my idea of tie'ing in Religion with Natural Wonders. Your idea's can also flow in, sect's and what buildings you choose to determine your Religion. Certainly we can build a good religion mechanic for Civ5.

 

[ZimbuTheMonkey]

Right now they are saying that religion was detrimental to gameplay, but it'll be added with an expansion one day. Just watch.

It's probably on a whiteboard in their offices titled "xpac" with a huge checkmark next to it.

 

[Tomice]

By the way, what do you think about fictional religions?

If they hesitate to include some religious features due to the strong feelings some people have in this regard, which was somewhat confirmed in BTS's manual, what do you think about fictional religions? Like almost every RPG has, see D&D or Dragon Age?

It would allow to give certain religions e.g. military bonuses, which would be unthinkable for Christianity or Islam, due to politcal correctness.

Or they could take "dead" religions, like the Mitras-Cult or the Roman/Greek gods.

 

[playshogi]

Probably environmentalism aka global warming is still in.

 

[Frank Drebin]

maybe it will be back in an expansion?

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Tomice, you've got it mostly right. In my Civ4 mod (that I'm working on at the moment-shameless plug), founding religions will work in a similar fashion to founding corporations. Yes you'll still need the techs, but you'll actually need a Great Prophet to physically found the religion. The good thing for Civ5 is that the religious "techs" are no longer in the tech tree, but are Social Policies instead-which makes a lot more sense IMHO. If I were to shift the mod to Civ5, then you'd probably need to have acquired at least 1 part of the Piety Tree before you could Found any religions. In my Mod, Sects will be handled on a Civ-by-Civ basis, with no chance for Schisms (I know they can be done, but my modding skills aren't up to the task ), but I'm seriously hoping that in Civ5 it will be easier to tie them to the founding player-& that schisms will be easy to mod in too .

Aussie.

 

[Frank Drebin]

well, the main question is, what, game mechanics wise, will they be good for if modded into civ5. (or added per expansion pack)

 

[dulsin]

Religious differences was one of the biggest causes of wars right up to the present day. I don't see how you can toss that out and have a decent sim.

 

[StittsvilleJame]

As long as they still have generic temples and such, than religion is ok to be gone, as far as i'm concerned.

Religion is way too political, complicated, and inherently unfun.

Praise Bob.

 

[ZimbuTheMonkey]

As long as they still have generic temples and such, than religion is ok to be gone, as far as i'm concerned.

Religion is way too political, complicated, and inherently unfun.

Praise Bob.

It was just cool seeing messages like:

"Hinduism has been founded in a distant land" or whatever

Seemed more real.