Is spreading your religion really wide worth the effort?

[kamex]

I suppose it depends on the the difficulty level (Emperor for me), but even with a strategy dedicated to spreading, the rewards don't seem that huge. For example:

Byzantium, Terra/Pangaea, using Religious Texts + Preachers + Unity of Prophets

This in my experience is the easiest to spread and most difficult to remove religion. Now taking Tithe, and having 90%+ of the worlds citizens converted, I'm still only getting like 200gpt by late game. Doesn't seem worth the effort when Venice could eclipse that just with standard trade routes without deviating from any particular strategy.

Not considering the Byzantium combo mentioned, its really hard to spread and keep it there unless you start on a continent and you're the only one on that continent to found a religion. Mainly because other religious civs constantly reconvert themselves using a seemingly endless supply of prophets every few turns, and the CS and non religious are constantly spammed with missionaries from all faiths like a pack of starving hyenas ripping up a corpse.

Being the world religion is nice, but not needed for CV, and its easy enough to get without spread just by buying votes and or CS anyway.

Is there something I'm missing?

 

[Mahasona]

Once I have a religion I grab inquisitors and turtle. I can't be bothered with religious wars.

I keep spare prophets for CS quests

 

[sunbeam]

I've had the same experience, and similar thoughts on the matter.

Obviously Religion is not a totally useless thing. But since you can gain benefits like buildings from religions founded by other civs, I'm not too sure it's worth the trouble in most cases.

Like you I most commonly take tithe as a founder (actually I'm not sure I've seen a let's play where anyone took anything other than that as a founder belief).

I have piddled around with things like Papal Primacy and the ones that depend on follower in foreign cities. But as you said keeping your religion widespread is almost as dicey a proposition as founding a religion in the first place (having features that give faith on the dirt, except for a couple of the civs). You need the situation you described in the first place, something like a continent where you were the only one to found one, and no one else on the continent went that route.

I've also tried enhancer beliefs like Religious Texts, Religious Unity, and Itinerant Preachers.

Nothing can overcome the relentless missionary and prophet spam the AI civs send out, unless your geography gives you a lot of cities with nonstop religious pressure that constantly reconverts cities from other religions.

And since I mentioned let's play videos, I haven't seen one yet where a human player won, or even got in the religion spreading contest with the AI civs. Most human players want to use faith for buildings, or getting great people as opposed to buying missionaries. They'll do it, but only if they are in a situation where Boudicca or one of the other likely suspects isn't spamming their own missionaries.

And as for the benefits of religion? Seems kind of underwhelming to me, considering the kind of focus it takes to go in this direction, unless you have very kind terrain for that kind of thing.

In the long run, Sacred Sites and To The Glory of God are the only reasons to use religion. A lot of people will mention Jesuit Education, but by the time I get to something like this, I've already built Universities in my core cities, the ones that actually have high pop and are the bulk of my research beakers. And when the schools and labs come along, I usually have enough cash to purchase them outright without blinking. So I've never found that one that useful. (Of course I never have over about 8 or something cities at the end, and have only four or so for the bulk of the game.)

 

[MechMedic130]

I don't get into a religious pissing match very often, but if I have some civs around me that didn't found one I'll use a profit to try to convert them to my religion. Sometimes I intentionally won't spread my religion to anything but city states because I don't want them to have the follower bonus that I took, then sometimes I'll take weak follower beliefs just to get the founder benefit without giving out too much of a bonus to them.

I've tried to play heavily religious games in the past and I feel like it just isn't worth the effort and makes me sacrifice better things to try to do so.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

It can work if you do it early (missionaries before enhancing prophet)

Largely depends on what you want from religion.
If going Byzantium, get 2 founders to make it worth while (Tithe+Church Property for super gold)
Otherwise the biggest reason to spread is Cultural Victory shared religion.

If you just want your individual bonuses then ignore spreading except to your own cities.

 

[Matthew.]

I suppose one way to look at it is turning faith into gold (or culture/happiness). I may throw the occasional GP or missionary at converting cities around me because generally I have leftover faith after GS purchases anyway (cost gets steep after the 3rd and 4th one).

Is it worth it? Well, probably more than having any wasted faith sitting and doing nothing, so I say use up to any amount you think you will have extra after your planned great person purchases.

 

[Puhi]

I'd say your faith is much better used buying other great people (scientists, or musicians if going cv), than missionaries and GPs. From a role playing perspective it can be fun to spread your religion far and wide, but even with tithe as a founder belief, I think you will get a better return from buying other great people. I also think this gets increasing true the higher level you play, as on immortal and especially deity, the ai can spam gp and missionaries like crazy.

 

[kaspergm]

One of my default strategies on Emperor if I get a good start close to a holy mountain that lets me found a religion early is Initiation Rites (100 Gold when a city first converts) + Holy Order (30 % cheaper missionaries) or Mandate Of Heaven (20 % cheaper missionaries) (or both).

I know people disregard Intitiation Rites because Tithe can give you much more money in the long run, but while that is true, the point is that Tithe only really kicks in late game, and like you say, it's not that hard getting loads of money in late game. Initiation Rites can give you a massive income very early which can easily be a game-changer imo. and the good thing is you don't need to worry about religion wars because if someone converts the cities to another religion later, you don't miss out on anything.

This strategy works best if you're on a continents map and either is the only one to found on your continent or eliminate competing religions on your continent. Then you can just lean back and enjoy the money rolling in.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I suppose it depends on the the difficulty level (Emperor for me), but even with a strategy dedicated to spreading, the rewards don't seem that huge. For example:

Byzantium, Terra/Pangaea, using Religious Texts + Preachers + Unity of Prophets

This in my experience is the easiest to spread and most difficult to remove religion. Now taking Tithe, and having 90%+ of the worlds citizens converted, I'm still only getting like 200gpt by late game. Doesn't seem worth the effort when Venice could eclipse that just with standard trade routes without deviating from any particular strategy.

Not considering the Byzantium combo mentioned, its really hard to spread and keep it there unless you start on a continent and you're the only one on that continent to found a religion. Mainly because other religious civs constantly reconvert themselves using a seemingly endless supply of prophets every few turns, and the CS and non religious are constantly spammed with missionaries from all faiths like a pack of starving hyenas ripping up a corpse.

Being the world religion is nice, but not needed for CV, and its easy enough to get without spread just by buying votes and or CS anyway.

Is there something I'm missing?

"only 200 gpt"? Is this a joke? Granary is "only 2 food", I could probably win most Immortal games without building it, but I would be crippling myself for no reason at all.

getting a religion is often not a bigger investment then building a shrine. if building a shrine early game can get you up to 200 gpt lategame you should definitely do it, otherwise you'd be pretty stupid.

with religion it is all about opportunity - if your neighbours are ethiopia, byzantium and maya then you might aswell forget about it and plant every single prophet. you still get huge benefits - more great people lategame.

if you however can spread your religion and with the way pressure works it often spreads completely by itself, then by all means you should always do it. to clarify I am talking about singleplayer. spreading a religion with jesuit in multiplayer is probably not worth it.

"only 200 gpt" - by the time you should have spread your religion (use first prophet to found, then either get the second prophet or spread via miss to religious CS if there's a quest, then capitals, then strategic cities) say turn 150 or even earlier - this will literally almost double your gpt. that is insane. you can rushbuy so many buildings, get so many cs alliances, it'll cut down your victory time by 20 to 30 turns easily. 200 gpt is huge. I can usually rushbuy all my science buildings with ~150 gpt and a few friends that give out loans...

check out either filthyrobot's video on pressure or the guide in the strategics section of this site, both are very good. they will teach you how to keep cities converted while using minimal faith for miss/prophets to convert, just by abusing the way pressure works.

I would also advise you to try playing arabia, using trade routes to passively pressure. this way you can invest almost your entire faith in prophets while still keeping important enemy cities/CS converted.

 

[Primacide]

So the following guide is fantastic in terms of teaching you how to effectively spread and maintain a vast religious influence. I don't follow the strategy to the win, but the discussion of how to spread and keep your faith in other cities is just plain outstanding. (Props to adwcta for developing it.)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=521674

 

[Sclb]

On deity, it isn't even possible to peacefully spread wide religion without going piety, then you're really gimping yourself doing so, but then there's a strat based using it to achieve diplo victory, but then again, diplo victory is bad as a benchmark since it's easy anyways.

However if you factor in conquest, then it's easy to actually convert the entire world to your religion. You can easily convert cities you conquered and spread it that way in the mean time conquering and converting holy cities also severally weakens rival religions.

 

[Redaxe]

On deity, it isn't even possible to peacefully spread wide religion without going piety, then you're really gimping yourself doing so, but then there's a strat based using it to achieve diplo victory, but then again, diplo victory is bad as a benchmark since it's easy anyways.

It's technically possible if you have enough faith generation. You only have to save up 3 great prophets and use them simultaneously to convert 12 cities around your neighborhood. If you have Religious texts, it'll hold itself after you do this.

It is slower though but it works better because you tend to wait until the Industrial era and the AI seems to have a hardcoded behavior that loses priority in religion once they start adopting ideologies.

 

[Redaxe]

I suppose it depends on the the difficulty level (Emperor for me), but even with a strategy dedicated to spreading, the rewards don't seem that huge. For example:

Byzantium, Terra/Pangaea, using Religious Texts + Preachers + Unity of Prophets

This in my experience is the easiest to spread and most difficult to remove religion. Now taking Tithe, and having 90%+ of the worlds citizens converted, I'm still only getting like 200gpt by late game. Doesn't seem worth the effort when Venice could eclipse that just with standard trade routes without deviating from any particular strategy.

Not considering the Byzantium combo mentioned, its really hard to spread and keep it there unless you start on a continent and you're the only one on that continent to found a religion. Mainly because other religious civs constantly reconvert themselves using a seemingly endless supply of prophets every few turns, and the CS and non religious are constantly spammed with missionaries from all faiths like a pack of starving hyenas ripping up a corpse.

Being the world religion is nice, but not needed for CV, and its easy enough to get without spread just by buying votes and or CS anyway.

Is there something I'm missing?

Its mostly true - that spreading a religion wide often doesn't give you a lot of reward for your effort, especially on higher difficulties. You can manipulate your neighbors into destroying a civ that founds a religion though - this removes the competition significantly. If they lose their holy city you can convert over it much more easily.

However the early "we share a common religion" is a very powerful diplomatic booster and basically guarantees you a friend - it's situational but it does work quite well. Unfortunately it disappears in the late game.
The World Religion modifier for +50% tourism is also extremely powerful and often can guarantee you a culture victory

World Church can be very powerful though - if I was to do a wide religious game with Byzantium then World Church should feature into this.

 

[Sclb]

It's technically possible if you have enough faith generation. You only have to save up 3 great prophets and use them simultaneously to convert 12 cities around your neighborhood. If you have Religious texts, it'll hold itself after you do this.

It is slower though but it works better because you tend to wait until the Industrial era and the AI seems to have a hardcoded behavior that loses priority in religion once they start adopting ideologies.

Deity AI also spams cities and 12 isn't enough, on a typical game we're looking at 7 per AI on average I think. Some will have more than 20. You need a wide empire to be able to keep up on faith generation and piety is good for that.

 

[Redaxe]

Deity AI also spams cities and 12 isn't enough, on a typical game we're looking at 7 per AI on average I think. Some will have more than 20. You need a wide empire to be able to keep up on faith generation and piety is good for that.

True but if you're able to get 2-3 prophets out to convert 1 or 2 civs around you then that is a bit of a compromise without having to go full Piety

 

[Chum]

Honestly, religious spread is way more about geography and opportunity rather than being a game plan that's "worth it" or "not worth it".

If you have religious neighbors, then obviously you're not going to do it for the bad diplo involved. You need to understand how pressure works and works off of itself, and once you do that, you'll start to see scenarios where you can put in a minimal investment and get large returns. Shared Religion is a huge AI diplo modifier, but you're not going to to be able to spread religion to the other side of the map and keep it there for any amount of time. Therefore, it works best when you're able to read the geography and see what civs and cities are going to be able to pressure themselves the most effectively so that you can use those 2 or 3 cheap prophets for maximum effect.

For example, if you're in the middle-ish of a continent, and a non founding neighbor is to your east and all the religions are to the west, you can very easily spread eastward to convert your non founding neighbor, and his pressure exerted on your cities will help protect your cities from the religious front on your western border. You also don't need to worry about rogue missionaries spreading to your eastern neighbor, because all of the pressure will flip cities back very quickly. You do need to hinder prophets going to your eastern neighbor, but even then, they would need several prophets to convert your non founding neighbor all at once and not be reconverted by passive pressure.

One of the biggest jumps in my game came after i fully understood religious pressure mechanics. Now I know when to bother and when not to bother. 4 city tradition in the middle of religious neighbors? Forget it. Liberty Wide game with some non founding neighbors? You can make A LOT of faith, offset the happiness penalty from wide, and make some friends in the process.

 

[kamex]

On deity, it isn't even possible to peacefully spread wide religion without going piety, then you're really gimping yourself doing so, but then there's a strat based using it to achieve diplo victory, but then again, diplo victory is bad as a benchmark since it's easy anyways.

However if you factor in conquest, then it's easy to actually convert the entire world to your religion. You can easily convert cities you conquered and spread it that way in the mean time conquering and converting holy cities also severally weakens rival religions.

Awesome guide, thanks!

 

[lindsay40k]

I'm a fan of Pilgrimage and there's definitely a point of diminishing returns where the +2 FPT is never going to recoup the cost of a missionary.

Is Papal Primacy all that helpful? It's just a few CSs giving you friendship gifts without having to do quests or buy them. I suspect if you have the Faith to convert enough to be worth it, you may as well take Dialogue and farm beakers.

 

[Redaxe]

Is Papal Primacy all that helpful? It's just a few CSs giving you friendship gifts without having to do quests or buy them. I suspect if you have the Faith to convert enough to be worth it, you may as well take Dialogue and farm beakers.

It's rubbish - only a meagre +15 resting influence. That won't win you a diplomatic victory. You're better taking Tithe so you can have more gold to buy CSs

Regarding Pilgrimmage and Missionaries. A missionary focused religion can be interesting but again fitting into the theme of the thread - it's often not as rewarding for the effort involved.

But you can do the following
-Great Mosque (for missionary bonus)
-Mandate of Heaven policy

-Interfaith dialogue or World Church or Tithe
-Holy Order (I believer is better than Missionary Zeal if you are taking Evangelism)
-Evangelism (makes each missionary like a mini-Great Prophet)

-You still need a good faith income though to make this work successfully. SO a missionary centered religion can work quite well, you just need to stack the right beliefs together.

 

[lindsay40k]

Pilgrimage can be pretty beastly if you get Mosque and then Borobudur to enable an intensive early mass conversion, getting your faith entrenched and yielding a lot of faith whilst it's still worth it, but that's only really going to happen on low difficulty or exceptional Spain games. Where you can at least take One With Nature and not feed the AI buckets of free Pantheon faith