AdamCrock
Polish Pirate
Toku seems to be the last on that list. I relly like Toku he's rad ! 
Is the consensus on the tiering
- Thread starter kalandra
- Start date
Trait combinations are simple.
Tier 1: at least one economy (ORG, IND, FIN, PHI) and no military trait (PRO, AGG)
Tier 2: Everything else.
Strongest regular leader: Huayna Capac, followed by Mansa Musa.
Strongest unrestricted leader: Mehmed of Inca.
Tier 1: at least one economy (ORG, IND, FIN, PHI) and no military trait (PRO, AGG)
Tier 2: Everything else.
Strongest regular leader: Huayna Capac, followed by Mansa Musa.
Strongest unrestricted leader: Mehmed of Inca.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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Toku of Mali its a pretty big a hole move in MP 
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AdamCrock
Polish Pirate
Toku of Mali its a pretty big a hole move in MP
Drinking to their unique unit I guess
Worth a try !
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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Drinking to their unique unit I guess
The issue is if you don't roll BFC horse as egypt/persia or you aren't inca...how do you stop a fast skirmisher rush or choke?
- Archers get ~10% odds, on flatland.
- Protective skirmishers can take shock immediately with a discount barracks...meaning to stop your skirms with axes they'd need a rax too
...even then you maul them in cost-effectiveness.- Regular chariots are FAIL...combat 1 + first strike chance = winning odds for skirm...and that's on flatlands. Plus chariots are crap for defending cities and skirms CAN take cities.
- Rage quit in blazing time FFAs! Now you have more land
.Other than lucky civs the only way to really deal with it is to pick Inca or play water maps...you really can't hold off these chokes with archers.
AdamCrock
Polish Pirate
The issue is if you don't roll BFC horse as egypt/persia or you aren't inca...how do you stop a fast skirmisher rush or choke?
- Archers get ~10% odds, on flatland.
- Protective skirmishers can take shock immediately with a discount barracks...meaning to stop your skirms with axes they'd need a rax too
- Regular chariots are FAIL...combat 1 + first strike chance = winning odds for skirm...and that's on flatlands. Plus chariots are crap for defending cities and skirms CAN take cities.
- Rage quit in blazing time FFAs! Now you have more land
Other than lucky civs the only way to really deal with it is to pick Inca or play water maps...you really can't hold off these chokes with archers.
Too many "ifs" Napoleon said that every battle plan does not live long enough to face a real situation xD Nah just kidding around ^^ What I really want to say situational tactical situation can be avoided if not by reroll than by not attacking where it is not neccesary
Dr.Null
forIhavetastedthesushi
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Other than Inca, I think it depends on your playstyle, map, settings, and level.
Financial is a great trait for my preferred difficulty (which is LOW compared to many people here); at higher difficulties, Financial is not as good as Organized.
Financial is a great trait for my preferred difficulty (which is LOW compared to many people here); at higher difficulties, Financial is not as good as Organized.
jarhead_leif
Civ2ToT Modder
AdamCrock
Polish Pirate
Organized can help You spread Your wings better courts and all that 
(Summerians can "whoopass" at early game thanks to that) Ultimately Financial wins It's like having +1 commerce everywhere ! (if the tile can yield at least one commerce anyhow) Pretty powerfull
edit: archipelago especially
(Summerians can "whoopass" at early game thanks to that) Ultimately Financial wins It's like having +1 commerce everywhere ! (if the tile can yield at least one commerce anyhow) Pretty powerfull edit: archipelago especially
rfcfanatic
Mercantilist
Louis XIV of France is awesome because of cheap libraries and forges.
Drakarska
Epic Dadness
If we're going to restricted, then definitely Cupac, especially early game. There's been quite a few games were he has run rampant in SA and pretty much owned the the continent.
Unrestricted? Henry the VIII ( SCI/IND), I have yet had a game to where that fat bearded ego-maniac hasn't been a RPITA. And if he manages to gain any type of stronghold into WEUR and holds it until ASTRO, then it's a game from hell. The only saving grace is that when he hits NA and Sitting Bum is still alive, it will slow him down.
Unrestricted? Henry the VIII ( SCI/IND), I have yet had a game to where that fat bearded ego-maniac hasn't been a RPITA. And if he manages to gain any type of stronghold into WEUR and holds it until ASTRO, then it's a game from hell. The only saving grace is that when he hits NA and Sitting Bum is still alive, it will slow him down.
AdamCrock
Polish Pirate
The sea misterius , obligerant and all the faction seems to put their commerce throu ... I shall drink up that fill but .. butt right some future generation forbid me to it ? If not eaten by this generation than but some future xD Let us chew our fill chew and be happy ^^
CEO uncle Crock.
Datalinks.
CEO uncle Crock.
Datalinks.
Ok, looking at everyone ranking, I see a few consistent patterns.
Financial is highly rated, probably highest.
Organized, Philosophical, and Industrial is rated as good high.
Military related traits are always rated low. The purely military traits, Aggressive and Protective, are consistently the lowest rated. The Imperialist and Charismatic are rated slightly higher probably because they come with other non-military bonuses.
I just want to ask, why is military related traits consistently rated low? Is it only favour the warring playstyle or are the bonus too weak, or economic bonus are just better? Will they get better rated if it was multiplayer (Or if the AI played more like multiplayer)?
Also, what the highest difficulty someone beaten with Tokugawa (with Japan)?
Financial is highly rated, probably highest.
Organized, Philosophical, and Industrial is rated as good high.
Military related traits are always rated low. The purely military traits, Aggressive and Protective, are consistently the lowest rated. The Imperialist and Charismatic are rated slightly higher probably because they come with other non-military bonuses.
I just want to ask, why is military related traits consistently rated low? Is it only favour the warring playstyle or are the bonus too weak, or economic bonus are just better? Will they get better rated if it was multiplayer (Or if the AI played more like multiplayer)?
Also, what the highest difficulty someone beaten with Tokugawa (with Japan)?
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Agg and Protective provide no economic benefit (excluding the very rarely built and short-lived castle). Main benefit is, at least for Agg, is a bit of a boost in early rushes. However, early rushes become much less optimal/realistic on the highest levels.
Economic traits are actually far better warmonger traits in single player. It's more about getting up a good empire and getting military tech advantage over the AI. Generally easier with better Leaders.
By the way, my favorite trait is Expansive. Not saying it is the very top tier, but it is otherwise a very strong trait.
Not sure on MP. From my brief experience, EXP is quite a strong trait for quick worker whips. AGG is probably strong in normal war focused MP like teamers, since it's pretty much war out the gate. Philo might be strong as well for Great Artists, which have value in MP war games.
One can beat any difficulty with any leader. It's the skill of the human not the attributes of the Leader that make the difference.
AdamCrock
Polish Pirate
I will be speaking for myself !!! I do not like Toku !! I LOVE Catherine and only Catherine ! ^^ There ... finished
For what I did with Catherine is top secret In the early game, the military traits can fall flat.
Isolated starts. Potential victim may be too tough to tackle without siege. Someone else would become a monster if you and the victim fight instead of expanding.
Even if war is in the cards, your trait may not benefit the unit types you rely on.
Down the road, the most useful warmonger traits to me are ORG (takes some strain off my economy even when I'm abusing it) and SPI (diplomacy, switching between total war and economic recovery).
In multiplayer, military traits aren't enough without a strong early UU. As TMIT pointed out, Skirmishers are the natural choice because they are reliably nasty; they also send a nice big "forget about it" message rather than "hit me before I can connect the resources".
Traits only account for so much, beating Deity isn't much harder with Tokugawa than with anyone else.
Isolated starts. Potential victim may be too tough to tackle without siege. Someone else would become a monster if you and the victim fight instead of expanding.
Even if war is in the cards, your trait may not benefit the unit types you rely on.
Down the road, the most useful warmonger traits to me are ORG (takes some strain off my economy even when I'm abusing it) and SPI (diplomacy, switching between total war and economic recovery).
In multiplayer, military traits aren't enough without a strong early UU. As TMIT pointed out, Skirmishers are the natural choice because they are reliably nasty; they also send a nice big "forget about it" message rather than "hit me before I can connect the resources".
Traits only account for so much, beating Deity isn't much harder with Tokugawa than with anyone else.
Rating philosophical above spiritual can't be right can it?
Everyone can get some use from spiritual, even if it's cheap happy temples, and it gets better with more skill. Philosophical requires skill to get anything from it at all, and you have to be really bloody good to get the best.
Everyone can get some use from spiritual, even if it's cheap happy temples, and it gets better with more skill. Philosophical requires skill to get anything from it at all, and you have to be really bloody good to get the best.
jarhead_leif
Civ2ToT Modder
I prefer PHI over SPI. Main reason, I like running SE so here are the details. PHI is pretty useful for early GP pop especially GS. Even powerful with TGL(more scientist) and Mids(running Rep). And ofc, everyone loves GoldenAges(no anarchy) and bulbing techs.
PHI needs situational awareness and good judgment to rival FIN or ORG.
Because of the way
scale, it needs wilful negligence and a blatantly flawed playstyle to be all that much worse.
Any combination without AGG and PRO is good* (8)
SPI is one big bag of tricks, but no amount of fiddling ran rival the clout of an economy trait. Incidental time saving and discount temples is unimpressive, you need to work for your gain.
Any combination with an economy trait is good (4)
* Personal preference: I'm lukewarm at best about CHA and dislike CRE. I don't consider them objectively weaker than the other support traits though. Since CRE goes unusually well with PHI, I like 7 of the 8 combinations.
Because of the way
scale, it needs wilful negligence and a blatantly flawed playstyle to be all that much worse.Any combination without AGG and PRO is good* (8)
SPI is one big bag of tricks, but no amount of fiddling ran rival the clout of an economy trait. Incidental time saving and discount temples is unimpressive, you need to work for your gain.
Any combination with an economy trait is good (4)
* Personal preference: I'm lukewarm at best about CHA and dislike CRE. I don't consider them objectively weaker than the other support traits though. Since CRE goes unusually well with PHI, I like 7 of the 8 combinations.
A hypothetical question - If I put all the military related bonus in ONE single trait
Super Military Trait
-25% experience needed for unit promotion
Free Combat I promotion for Melee and Gunpower units
Free City Defender I and Drill I for Archery and Gunpowder units
Double Great General Emergence
Double Speed for build Barracks, Walls, Castle and Dry Docks.
How high would you all rated it?
