Is the Steam DRM just a one-time verification check? Or is it much more?

[Alki]

That post makes a lot of sense. I think most people just want Steam to be clear and concise about what it is doing with our internet connections.

 

[ainwood]

Let's start by framing this:

Some of this are facts, some are my opinions. You can decide.

OK - and with that in-mind, I'll address some points.


But let's start with the unpleasant bit:

My thread was immediately shut down and 'punishment' was handed out before I could even make my point.

Presumably you are referring to This thread? If you've got a problem with what bite did, then take it up with him via Private Message. If you don't like the response you get from him, then take it up, via private message with Padma or myself.

Ori is likely viewed as an outcast by bringing reasonable questions because CFC does not want this at all.

This must be an opinion, because it certainly isn't a fact. CFC wants polite, reasoned discussions about Civ5. We don't want people abusing and trolling each other. Everyone is welcome to their opinion, and there is no CFC-mandated opinion for any of its staff.

CFC wants everybody to step in line with this, and be happy with the DRM, or else face "punishment" because Civ 5 will bring ALOT of new members, and possible revenue to the site. They do not want to be seen as Dis-trustful of the controversial DRM methods being forced here. They want maximum number of users to think it is 'nothing to worry about' to maximize the use of the site.

As stated above, this is incorrect. This site, as far as I know, makes very little, if any money. The advertising does not cover the fees, and Thunderfall pays for the shortfall out of his own pocket, because he is passionate about all things civilization. He has never been in it for the money. To imply that he wants to punish dissenting views because he is motivated by money is actually quite insulting.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Its not your right to play video games. When you enter into a contract with Valve as customer/service provider you agree to certain conditions. Note that there will be no penalty if you do enforce your belief that you should micro-manage traffic from your computer, but you may experience a degradation of the quality of service you receive from Valve.

So given that you can have your rights and eat them too, what is the problem? Just put a strict firewall block on Steam when you're not updating or renewing credentials.

Probably the most reasonable post I've seen from you in ages.

Damn, this is still going on. I'll explain it in short again: when in offline-modus you don't need an internet connection after the initial activation. There. THAT'S IT. I don't know why the hell everyone is still talking about steam still pinging when you use offline mode while online (what's that about?). It's completely irrelevant to anything. I've never known a forum which drew trivial stuff out like this. 17 pages and somehow people are talking about bicycles being cars. Do any of you people realise this discussion literally repeats itself at least TWO times per page? It's freaking ridiculous.

Yes, yes I do. It's pretty crazy, eh?

*rimshot*

Yeah, to be honest we should make a thread where everyone who says they're not going to buy the game can /sign so we can enjoy pointing it out to them after September.

You'd probably get pinged for trolling, but whatever floats your boat.

Are you paranoid?! You think everyone is out to get you or something?

Internet required for the whole thing ensures that people do not mis-use the software. Internet-for-uninstall was just a valid example of how to do that. Internet while playing ensures that updates are handed out as soon as released, ensures that individuals have access all the time to the many benefits Steam has to offer, including chatting with friends, special free DLC packages that may be available, and getting front line protection of their software from the evil 2nd hand / pirate market that is growing.

-------------------

It is hypocritical to defend Forced-Internet to Install; and not defend Non-Intrusive required Internet to play the game

He he, quite a funny post. I see what you did there.

In Windows Live Messenger for example even though I set it to 'Offline' it still goes out to the network and gathers a list of available contacts. I am invisible to them but I can instantly connect to them if I choose.

Correct me if I'm wrong because it's been a while since I used that program, but Offline mode was presented along with things like "Online" and "Busy". In that sense, it was more obvious that it was the status of the user that was being described. I wouldn't expect a program like messenger to be offline when your status is set to offline. You might as well just close the program.

For Steam though, it would be quite reasonable to assume an offline mode meant the program was literally offline. I'm not saying it should and Valve can word it however they want, but I am saying that is how a lot of people would expect it to mean. Are you suggesting that the meaning of "offline" for Steam is just that the user is offline rather than the software? Perhaps that is what the wording confusion is all about?

 

[Xiao Xiong]

26% have internet... 74% do not have internet. Approx figures. Minority has internet.

Starving children in third world countries are unlikely to buy Civ5. Of the people who are going to buy the game 99.999% have internet and the other 0.001% are calling up their ISP to find out what the problem is.

As for re-installing from a DVD or CD, yeah, I lose those too. Two or three years later when my computer dies do you really think I know where the DVD is? I have lost a lot of stuff over the years just because I could not find the DVD or CD to reinstall.

It's much better to have it all managed online, and yes you can play offline once you install it, stop with your nonsense that you can't. You PLAINLY can. I installed Civ4 off steam and played it on airplanes at 30k in the sky with internet nowhere in sight. Although.. it isn't going to be long before internet is a common feature in flight it's already available to some passengers.

 

[The_Coyote]

Starving children in third world countries are unlikely to buy Civ5. Of the people who are going to buy the game 99.999% have internet and the other 0.001% are calling up their ISP to find out what the problem is.

You certainly have sources at hand to support your figures (something like internet cover by country - considering also the expected sold figures of Civ5). Or did you made an baseless assumption and forgot to mention it?
(@ Senethro: honestly, you must add this as example to your list)

As for re-installing from a DVD or CD, yeah, I lose those too. Two or three years later when my computer dies do you really think I know where the DVD is? I have lost a lot of stuff over the years just because I could not find the DVD or CD to reinstall.

I will use some borrowed words to describe the situation

You screwed up. Nobody else is to blame.

It's much better to have it all managed online, and yes you can play offline once you install it, stop with your nonsense that you can't. You PLAINLY can. I installed Civ4 off steam and played it on airplanes at 30k in the sky with internet nowhere in sight. Although.. it isn't going to be long before internet is a common feature in flight it's already available to some passengers.

You know, that the situation you posted is not questioned so far, did you? But nevertheless, feel free to repeat the example as often as you like.

 

[PieceOfMind]

It seems to me that with the invention of digital distribution all of a sudden people started losing their CDs.

 

[Chalks]

You'd probably get pinged for trolling, but whatever floats your boat.

Oh, on a site with the most over-broad definition of that word I have ever encountered, that'll be just another day.

"Prove me wrong kids! Prove me wrong..."

 

[PieceOfMind]

"Prove me wrong kids! Prove me wrong..."

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[Chalks]

I'm not sure what you mean.

We'll see if I get a "trolling" infraction for that post in order to discover if the staff share your confusion!

 

[Senethro]

You certainly have sources at hand to support your figures (something like internet cover by country - considering also the expected sold figures of Civ5). Or did you made an baseless assumption and forgot to mention it?
(@ Senethro: honestly, you must add this as example to your list)

I'll accept anything sufficiently wild and outlandish but I'm not sure that qualifies. XX used knowingly exaggerated figures in response to correct but inappropriately used figures. It is accurate to say that the majority of potential civ players will have internet. How many people can afford a min-spec computer of a modern game but don't go online?

 

[The_Coyote]

I'll accept anything sufficiently wild and outlandish but I'm not sure that qualifies. XX used knowingly exaggerated figures in response to correct but inappropriately used figures. It is accurate to say that the majority of potential civ players will have internet. How many people can afford a min-spec computer of a modern game but don't go online?

It was the first sentence (not the exaggerated figures itself) - most likely it was the true part of his statement, but also a quite outlandish one for a discussion.

 

[Alki]

Is it really any surprise that a profit making company is targeting a customer base that can afford the internet and therefor can afford to buy expansions add ons and the rest?

 

[frekk]

Then you'll just have to do it the old fashion way...

http://www.ebgames.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=77189

EBGames and search Civilization.

Your link doesn't work.

If that means I can buy the game as a cd and not a download, then that's much better, I won't have to worry about paying bitcap overages to my cable provider. But it's still a long, long way from making me a customer.

I still have to log on to Steam to activate, right? Well, what happens in 8 or 10 years (yes, I still play games I really like that long) when the activation server isn't around, when that version of civ isn't being supported anymore? If I take it off my HDD, I'm screwed.

Moreover, what happens if Steam goes bankrupt, or gets acquired by another company who decides to reorganize things a bit and drop all "older" (ie probably 6 months +) games?

And what happens if I'm without Internet connection for a season or two at some point in the future? I do this often to save money. Does this mean I'll be gameless if I need to install the game, for that entire time?

Effectively all this means that I'm not buying the game anymore. I'm just renting it for a few years.

I'm not buying any game that I can't run off a cd without an internet connection. At least, not for full price. I'd spring for 20 bucks maybe, as a long-term rental or lease sort of idea.

Steam might be great for some people, I don't know, I just know that as a consumer, it doesn't work for me. I'm a customer if they can put a non-Steam version out, and I don't mind them having a Steam version for those who like it - I don't want to take it anyway from anyone who wants it. Supporters of exclusive Steam seem to be supporting taking away what I want, though.

 

[The_Coyote]

Is it really any surprise that a profit making company is targeting a customer base that can afford the internet and therefor can afford to buy expansions add ons and the rest?

I would most likely try to market the persons who are most likely to buy (unfortunately we all know this is not equal to play) the game. In which degree internet (and to have the money to afford internet and to have internet is also not equal, not considering availableness of broadband [perhaps in the US and EU no longer problem number one for the majority] or flat rates [no idea how the worldwide situation is]) can characterize this group is a question only a market survey is able to answer. (i would say, nowadays it´s will be not the best predictor)

 

[arstal]

There is no conspiracy at CFC. I do think that some of the Steam Sunshine Squad has gotten away with murder by comparison- but we have no foolproof way of knowing, but that's not an excuse to act in the same way.

I'll accept some DRM. I stop accepting when it slows down the experience every time I wish to play, which Steam DRM does (Mount and Blade was a good test, it took an extra 10 seconds to load on Steam, then what I got it off of Steam)

If I play a game 1000 times , 1000*10= 10,000 seconds= 1,667 minutes= 28 hours roughly.
That's a significant time wastage.

Even at 2 seconds, it's 5.6 hours. Still a siginificant chunk of time.

GOO DRM seems to take 1 or 2 seconds on install and patch. Does just as good a job of protection (not very, but good enough for 0-day), and doesn't impact me that much.

In terms of Modern gaming platforms. Steam is the biggest. It's far from the best. It's definitely not consumer-friendly.

If you guys REALLY want to see the difference between Steam and non-Steam, get Mount and Blade Warband on Steam during a sale, then play it on there for a bit, then download the client directly and enter your serial on that. (mods: Talewords allows any DD-bought game to be downloaded directly from there to get off the DD service, this is perfectly fine) You'll get a much better experience. That's the best way to judge for yourself how much of a negative (or not) Steam is.

Game is pretty good also. The Original is dirt cheap and uses the same method- no MP though. Very few people use steam in MP there, and the servers are a lot less laggy then TF2 servers. (probably apples and oranges comparison)

 

[Chalks]

I still have to log on to Steam to activate, right? Well, what happens in 8 or 10 years (yes, I still play games I really like that long) when the activation server isn't around, when that version of civ isn't being supported anymore? If I take it off my HDD, I'm screwed.

Moreover, what happens if Steam goes bankrupt, or gets acquired by another company who decides to reorganize things a bit and drop all "older" (ie probably 6 months +) games?

It is extremely unlikely that this will happen and Valve have said that they are able to release a patch to disable the activation requirement. Obviously 2k games would also be able to do this independently. Some sort of game developer apocalypse would take out both these companies at once before they were able to unlock their games - and even then we still have hackers to do it.

And what happens if I'm without Internet connection for a season or two at some point in the future? I do this often to save money. Does this mean I'll be gameless if I need to install the game, for that entire time?

Dial up internet access for a minute or two should be achievable in this situation I would assume. Mobile internet. Some way of communicating with civilization.

Effectively all this means that I'm not buying the game anymore. I'm just renting it for a few years.

No, you own it and can play it forever. There is no arbitrary "few years" limitation. If we avoid a game company apocalypse and you remember to not uninstall the thing if you're going to be without internet access for a while, nothing will stop you.

I'm not buying any game that I can't run off a cd without an internet connection.

Why? You're perfectly capable of playing the game with arguably more convenience than one that runs off a CD. Nothing stops you, nothing inconveniences you. You've got internet access right now.

You're willing to forgo the game because of some perceived potential future inconvenience that might occur if a bunch of unlikely things all collude against you.

How are we meant to have a sensible discussion if you take that position?

 

[Senethro]

There is no conspiracy at CFC. I do think that some of the Steam Sunshine Squad has gotten away with murder by comparison- but we have no foolproof way of knowing, but that's not an excuse to act in the same way.

I'll accept some DRM. I stop accepting when it slows down the experience every time I wish to play, which Steam DRM does (Mount and Blade was a good test, it took an extra 10 seconds to load on Steam, then what I got it off of Steam)

If I play a game 1000 times , 1000*10= 10,000 seconds= 1,667 minutes= 28 hours roughly.
That's a significant time wastage.

I invite you to show your working.

 

[PieceOfMind]

We'll see if I get a "trolling" infraction for that post in order to discover if the staff share your confusion!

I think you misunderstood my meaning.

I meant you would get pinged for trolling if you created such a thread or if in the future you actually went around pointing out all the people who boycotted the game yet bought it. It could easily be construed as trolling.

Obviously the post I quoted you on is not trolling. Sorry if it sounded like I suggested that.

 

[Commander Bello]

How are we meant to have a sensible discussion if you take that position?

A first step would be to accept that others don't share your point of view.

 

[Chalks]

I think you misunderstood my meaning.

I meant you would get pinged for trolling if you created such a thread or if in the future you actually went around pointing out all the people who boycotted the game yet bought it. It could easily be construed as trolling.

Obviously the post I quoted you on is not trolling. Sorry if it sounded like I suggested that.

Naa, don't worry, not what I meant

A first step would be to accept that others don't share your point of view.

Disagreeing with a point of view is not the same as denying its existence. It's easy to write off a response with that, but it doesn't make very much sense.