Is the Steam DRM just a one-time verification check? Or is it much more?

[scrlk]

again: noob

Just type STEAM Issues in google, because of all the issues CRYTEK isnt promoting steam any longer.

U shouldnt try to profile urself with information u havent veryfied.

English?

 

[Chalks]

I will, however, offer my opinion on something: I'd have a problem if Steam blocked legitimate mods. I'd have no problem if Steam blocked a "mod" which basically was the Babylonian civilization from the Deluxe version, but with the "y" changed into an "i", for instance.

I believe the license to distribute content from previous expansion packs has simply been you are only permitted to distribute modified content.

That means that if you modified the name of the civilization only, you'd only be permitted to distribute the new name, but none of the textures, meshes, leaders, stats, etc.

I'm not sure what they would do if you literally opened up every single object and modified it slightly. I guess nobody has tried to be that much of a cheeky git in the past - but I assume they would see through their "super clever" attempt to bypass the rules and tell them where to go.

Occam's razor. There is no need for a more complicated answer to these problems than "what they have done in the past".

English?

Hey buddy - I would PM you this but you have PMs turned off.

Don't get into a fight with this guy. The rules on this forum are extremely strict (more strict than I've ever encountered on a forum before) and this kid is either going to get banned or infracted into oblivion when a mod notices him.

Don't get caught in the crossfire, just ignore him.

 

[Kosmopolit]

English?

Thx for confirming ur defeat.

NOOB!

Moderator Action: infraction for flameing

 

[scrlk]

Hey buddy - I would PM you this but you have PMs turned off.

Don't get into a fight with this guy. The rules on this forum are extremely strict (more strict than I've ever encountered on a forum before) and this kid is either going to get banned or infracted into oblivion when a mod notices him.

Don't get caught in the crossfire, just ignore him.

Must...Resist...Temptation...To...Post

 

[Kosmopolit]

Hey buddy - I would PM you this but you have PMs turned off.

Don't get into a fight with this guy. The rules on this forum are extremely strict (more strict than I've ever encountered on a forum before) and this kid is either going to get banned or infracted into oblivion when a mod notices him.

Don't get caught in the crossfire, just ignore him.

Wow, u r really mature.
But no altruistic human. U dont have the ability to explain u r point of view understandable, so u get personal.

Fricking old man, maybe u should use viagra.

Moderator Action: Infraction for flaming

 

[Kosmopolit]

Must...Resist...Temptation...To...Post

So because u cant convince me means u try to compensate ur miserable feeling of defeat by joking about me?
But thats like a F117A who tries to cloak while he is crashing.

 

[Chalks]

Must...Resist...Temptation...To...Post

I know Just rule violations and let the overlords deal with it.

 

[mossmonster]

Sorry, had to drive home. Glad you missed me.

If we keep this up we're gonna need a big ol' group-hug.

My post explicitly said "Steam cannot be used to prevent you from playing with any particular mods." and she said the post was correct, so I think you can stick a tick in that box.

But she didn't explicitly address all of your points. She gave one general comment "This is, indeed, true." and then spoke of easily finding content and convenience and not having to have a DVD, etc.

Of course Steam can prevent you from playing Civ5. If it couldn't it wouldn't be of much value as a DRM now would it? If Steam can prevent you from playing Civ5 for DRM reasons then it can prevent you from playing Civ5 for any other reason as well. Even if they told Elizabeth that they have no plans to enforce copyright infringement or block mods/content they can later change their minds any time they like. And my concern is that the Steam monitoring program will already be on my computer already.

Firaxis has said that they will attempt to moderate the in-built mod browser themselves via a crowd sourced flagging system. The rules Firaxis enforces will likely be the same rules that are enforced on sites like CFC so I doubt anyone will notice.

I honestly hope you are correct. I have spent an embarrassing amount of my life playing this game over the years and would like to continue doing so.

 

[Chalks]

I honestly hope you are correct. I have spent an embarrassing amount of my life playing this game over the years and would like to continue doing so.

There certainly doesn't seem to be any reason why it wouldn't work like that. It's not like Firaxis has undergone some huge management change or something.

There could be all sorts of things wrong with the game, but until we know more I don't thing there's much point talking about them.

 

[mossmonster]

...Occam's razor. There is no need for a more complicated answer to these problems than "what they have done in the past".

I agree up to Occam's. What they have done in the past didn't include a required active monitoring program that starts and runs the whole time I play Civ and also has the power to prevent me from playing Civ.

 

[Chalks]

Yes it did, it was called SecureROM. They just made more of an effort to hide it and it didn't require online activation.

They've not just suddenly started using DRM, they've just followed every single other new game in using a modern DRM technique, just like they did with SecureROM.

 

[mossmonster]

Must...Resist...Temptation...To...Post

Best to ignore it. Discussions of piracy are a ban waiting to happen.

 

[CivilizedTiger]

~~~
... hm... nevermind... this was an arrogant...ish post

 

[mossmonster]

Yes it did, it was called SecureROM. They just made more of an effort to hide it and it didn't require online activation.

They've not just suddenly started using DRM, they've just followed every single other new game in using a modern DRM technique, just like they did with SecureROM.

SecureROM wasn't nearly as insidious as Steam can be. Once SecureROM was burned to the game disk that was the version we all had forever. The Steam DRM/monitor can be changed or updated at any time - which is the base source of my concerns. It gives the game company (or the game company's parent company, or the game company's parent company's parent company, etc.) the ability to change the rules anytime they want to whatever they want. We already spent our money on the game or the game + some yummy DLC and at that point have no recourse.

 

[Chalks]

SecureROM wasn't nearly as insidious as Steam can be. Once SecureROM was burned to the game disk that was the version we all had forever.

I agree, however, SecureROM and the DRM concept it was built on is fundamentally flawed and has been abandoned by all mainstream publishers. The fact of the matter is, whether you like it or not, every new game you want to buy is going to have online activation. It's not the future, it's the present.

Given this, I'm glad they are using Steam since it is the least intrusive of any online activation DRM I am aware of.

This is the position that I'm coming from.

The Steam DRM/monitor can be changed or updated at any time - which is the base source of my concerns. It gives the game company (or the game company's parent company, or the game company's parent company's parent company, etc.) the ability to change the rules anytime they want to whatever they want. We already spent our money on the game or the game + some yummy DLC and at that point have no recourse.

It's not so much that I disagree with you on this, but the fact that Valve has promised to unlock any unsupported game for unlimited use, I don't think eventualities like this are worth worrying about.

Nobody is going to be convinced to remove their DRM because at some point in the future perhaps something might go wrong and maybe the company that said they would unlock it might not.

As we all know, by the time Valve is anywhere near going bust, Civ 5 will be cracked long long ago. Worst case, you'll still be able to play.

Steam isn't going anywhere any time soon. They're raking in ludicrously high profits. They don't want to do anything to rock the boat so they're going to keep everyone as happy as possible.

 

[mossmonster]

I agree, however, SecureROM and the DRM concept it was built on is fundamentally flawed and has been abandoned by all mainstream publishers. The fact of the matter is, whether you like it or not, every new game you want to buy is going to have online activation. It's not the future, it's the present.

Given this, I'm glad they are using Steam since it is the least intrusive of any online activation DRM I am aware of.

What about Stardock/Impulse? I loved Galactic Civilizations 2 and it only required a one-time activation of the game and unless I'm mistaken didn't require a monitor program running while I played GalCiv2. I'm sure Firaxis had their reasons to chose Steam but that doesn't mean there is no cause for concern about their choice.

It's not so much that I disagree with you on this, but the fact that Valve has promised to unlock any unsupported game for unlimited use, I don't think eventualities like this are worth worrying about.

Nobody is going to be convinced to remove their DRM because at some point in the future perhaps something might go wrong and maybe the company that said they would unlock it might not.

As we all know, by the time Valve is anywhere near going bust, Civ 5 will be cracked long long ago. Worst case, you'll still be able to play.

Steam isn't going anywhere any time soon. They're raking in ludicrously high profits. They don't want to do anything to rock the boat so they're going to keep everyone as happy as possible.

All this concern could be put to rest if 2K Elizabeth or someone official would post somewhere or start a thread and clearly define the rules and set the record straight. Can she promise us that Steam won't be used as a user mods/content infringement enforcement tool? If someone releases a verbatim copy of a paid mod/content then fine, ban them. But the rules past that are foggy. Can I create a civ and even call it "Babylonia"? Are user created maps of Mesopotamia allowed at all? On the other end are all user-created mods/content allowed? That would be fine but why not let us know that?

Uncertainty and silence breed suspicion. Clearly defined rules (for us and them) and promises not to modify those rules in any but the most extreme of circumstances breed confidence. So where are the rules? What mods/content are permitted? What limits do they promise not to cross with regard to their absolute authority through Steam? If we do violate a rule do we get a warning? If we have an older but recently-banned mod/content can we at least finish out our current game? Who knows? All I know is they want my money and me to trust them to download a monitoring program onto my computer. Before I blindly provide those I would like them to clarify their side of the agreement too. I think that's reasonable.

 

[Sterf]

I must say I have never heard of a mod being banned on steam ever, so I'm not sure why everyone here thinks Civ V is so special. If there was ever a problem playing a mod on steam it was because the game used different updates for store-bought and steam-version, which wasn't so prevalent anyway and I don't think there are any recent games that do that (and doesn't matter for Civ V since it's steam-only).

I don't think they can even see if you're playing a mod or not, unless they specifically code that in the game itself, which is pretty doubtful and never before done as far as I know. Plus that wouldn't be steam's doing, but Firaxis.

 

[HamTard]

What about Stardock/Impulse? I loved Galactic Civilizations 2 and it only required a one-time activation of the game and unless I'm mistaken didn't require a monitor program running while I played GalCiv2. I'm sure Firaxis had their reasons to chose Steam but that doesn't mean there is no cause for concern about their choice.

Steam actually offers a lot of features Firaxis wanted, including big ones like multiplayer matchmaking. This saved them the time of developing their own system from scratch, allowing them to put that time towards making the core game more solid. Sure there are other DRM options, but other DRM options don't come with features to make game development easier.

 

[ArcadicGamer]

STEAM currently has no monitoring system in its most cheated and competitive games for modified content. You can go into TF2 or CSS and replace all textures with clear boxes and play the game without getting VAC banned. Its rather simple to do. If STEAM had a system for checking the integrity of files, you'd think they'd have already implemented it on their most popular games.

As for mods, the only thing STEAM will moderate is the posting of mods to their client for download. If a mod (say Rhys and Fall) became DLC later, all they would happen is the removal of the free mod content from download, and replaced with a DLC download. It would be illegal to distribute the mod at CFC, but nothing keeping you from playing the free version you downloaded. There is precident for this, Garry's Mod for the HL2 engine was avalible for free until it was added as a purcaseable option from STEAM. I still use the old FREE mod with no hassle from STEAM in online mode.

That being said, there is nothing stopping you from pirating the exclusive civ, it just won't be avalible through STEAM's downloads and CFC's. If there is an illegal version of the civ that runs rampant, they can update STEAM to look for it and disable it, but you'd think that any of the above examples would have already happened to me in the years i have used STEAM.

I have problems with the following from the OP.

- Does Steam differentiate between single-player vs multi-player or offline vs online? In other words can even I play a single-player offline game without Steam being required to start and constantly monitor my actions? No

STEAM does differentiate from offline and online modes. The issue i have is with the last half of the last sentence. STEAM doesn't care what you do with your game beyond anti-cheat enabled servers. You can mod the files while playing the game, or cheat all you want and STEAM doesn't care. Removing the last half of this sentence makes it a Fact instead of a paranoid opinion. Its also important to note, some 3rd party games can be played online while steam is offline. This will not be likely true for CIV 5 because of STEAMs intergration, but it is possible. It is also up to the developer to care about Single-player vs. Multiplayer in their handling of the game.

- Additional cost game content is already being offered, a Babylonian civ and a Mesopotamia map, and DLC is promised. Can some corporate guy decide that an independent game mod or content, from any source, is too similar to the official paid content and ban it? Yes

I covered this above. STEAM will control what gets posted, and will remove content from download as needed. If a mod did contain copyrighted content not intended, they can patch that mod so that copyrighted content is removed. They have never removed content from a computer after it has been copyrighted for retail, as above. They would have no control over what mods you download through CFC or other means. (It should be noted that i have always kept backup copies outside of the STEAM folder for my MODS, but its always been precautionary. None of the content i have personally modded or others content has ever been changed post-download by STEAM.)

- Because Steam is required to start and constantly run while playing Civ5, can it prevent me from playing with the now-banned mods/content in my game? Yes

There is no evidence ether way on this. As above, if a mod they distribute on STEAMWORKS is found to have illegal content, they will patch it out. They would likely never allow a Hitler's WW2 mod for DL, but nothing should prevent you from putting it in your mods folder and launching it after download from another source.


LINKS for verification.
Garry's Mod Old version is still up for download and works great! http://www.fileplanet.com/149087/140000/fileinfo/Half-Life-2---Garry's-Mod-9.0.4

Offline Mode FAQ
https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-AGCB-2555

 

[HamTard]

Rhys and Fall won't become paid DLC unless they sign a distribution deal with 2K/Firaxis. They may become officially listed free mods though.