Is the Steam DRM just a one-time verification check? Or is it much more?

[tom2050]

No, they state that offline mode allows you to play your games without logging into the steam network, which is entirely true.

You state other things without even understanding what's going on and criticise them based on a paranoid fantasy that steam connecting to steam's servers is a bad thing.

There you go again... you don't know how Steam defines steam networks... it is most likely a spin on words.

A Steam Network at first glance means connecting to anything that is Steam (to most people). This implies that is does not attempt a connection at all.

Steam has likely defined Steam Network as something completely different, to make it so they can do w/e they want.

2K ELIZABETH got it wrong, she doesn't even know what the hell it means, and she works for Take2.

It is bad for you to be in a paranoid wet dream with Steam all the time, waking up and getting a splash of cold water would do a person good.

 

[Senethro]

But you are passing judgement that it is good, with no info other than the fact that Valve states it doesn't happen at all, when it in indeed does on a regular basis. 2K backed Valves statement up that it does not communicate either.

The point was: Company is not telling the truth. This is misleading to those who want their privacy intact.

2K != Valve

Many people do want their privacy intact, that is why websites and programs have privacy policies, so individuals know what their info is used for ahead of time.

Not everyone is like Chalks and Senethro and are willing to give all their personal information out to anyone who asks for it.

What privacy do you think has been invaded?

And lastly, people usually resort to defending their position with no defense (calling others paranoid continually, etc) when they know they cannot give a valid argument. Just look at what the Progressives in the USA do on a daily basis.

Genocide, drug selling, all the rest and now the liberal progressives that are destroying America. Stay classy folks!

 

[tom2050]

2K != Valve

Good point... even Valve fooled 2K into believing half-false infomation.

The whole point is that Valve's words, while literal, mis-inform consumers of their intention.

It is the only point that was brought up by the whole thing, this is the "untruth".

Or as some may state, "Those Lying Bastards".

 

[Kaelic]

Btw steam simply said nothing about this

It's on their website. Did you see the link?

So the only clear sentence what shall happen in offline mode came from 2K Elizabeth so far.

I'm sorry but 2k is not Steam. This is second-hand information and it means just about jack .

If a company uses formulations that the "common man" (only the majority of all customers) will / can misunderstand, what shall he think about this company? It´s great, they deal fair with me, they don´t try to fake me? [<- warning, minor hyberbole used]

If the common man makes assumptions without reading guides, FAQs or documentation, he is stupid and deserves no sympathy. The information is on the Steam website. There is also the ability to submit questions to Steam on their website.

[And btw, you also know that there are nations where judges have a different view in this case, how important the common mans understanding of features and contracts with firms is?]
I don't really see what your point here is, sorry.

It´s your turn to bring real facts (no assumption), why someone shouldn´t be bothered about it.

Not really, this whole "argument" is that Steam Offline-Mode actually opens sockets. That is the only fact we have, people have asserted that this is wrong. If they find it ethically wrong, that's their own non-technical opinion. If they think it does anything nefarius, burden is on them to prove this.

- There is a claim of the only official 2K (you know the publisher of Civ5) representative around, that the is no communication in offlien mode

They are not Steam, are not Valve, are not Firaxis (the programmers). They are the least trustworthy source for this information.

- there is a decription not clearly describing what happens and what not (steam)

This description is very clear, can you elaborate on what is not clear about it?

- there seems to be a unique header (an open question would be: user unique, or eg steam version unique, PC unique?) in the packages

I don't really understand this, can you explain?

- beside this, the amount of transfered data seem to be small [1 kb send, 0.5 kb received]

You have to understand how network devices communicate. When you open a socket the target socket automatically performs low-level communication for the socket before you (the software) actually communicates with the server. Until it has been proven, you cannot assume that the connection open by Steam is doing anything more than opening a socket.

If you're so inclined you can use a packet sniffer (Wireshark) and find out if it is anything more than low-level TCP communication. Until you have this proof, the assumption that it is anything more than basic low-level network packets is simply baseless.

So the offline mode is nothing more than a option to play without need to have a internet connection. It´s no option for someone who wants to reduce the amount of contact with steam to a minimum, for someone who has objections towards steam.

They can block Steam with a firewall or disconnect from the Internet.

Now considering the situation that you can see the above mentionend claim from 2K Elizabeth to calm down the persons with objections towards steam, selling steam as one time online verification with no communication afterwards to them, you hopeful can start to accept, that objectives can arise.

I can see why those who are completely uninformed would be confused and frankly this is 2k's fault. They never should have addressed the problem like this because people (mistakenly) think 2k are in a strong position to make statements about Steam.

 

[Senethro]

Good point... even Valve fooled 2K into believing half-false infomation.

The whole point is that Valve's words, while literal, mis-inform consumers of their intention.

It is the only point that was brought up by the whole thing, this is the "untruth".

Or as some may state, "Those Lying Bastards".

And you can produce Valve's words and show intent to deceive?

 

[need my speed]

Can you show their intent and back it up with proof? Every company is there to make money. They think of theirselves first. That goes for anyone and anything, not only Steam and Valve.

 

[The_Coyote]

It's on their website. Did you see the link?

yes - but again they don´t say what happens (or please point me to the sentence, where they wrote that in offline mode there will be a 'whatever' to the server if the pc itself is online). There is a difference between saying something and saying nothing about a topic. If there is something like this, yes i missed it it so far.

I'm sorry but 2k is not Steam. This is second-hand information and it means just about jack .

Sorry, i buy the game from 2k, not Valve. The deal with valve is something 2K has to care about, not i. So the information can be seen as first handed. Tbh i don´t care about Valve, but i care 2K and Firaxis because they sell / make the game.

If the common man makes assumptions without reading guides, FAQs or documentation, he is stupid and deserves no sympathy.

Why, this parts has no legal binding for them. The only legal binding part is the steam subscriber agreement. And also there was already the proven case that in one non english language the Wiki was outdated. So i wouldn´t believe everything written there. But - beside you can´t prove a direct link in the first citation - the only critic i have in this topic is the lack of clarifying words from Valve.

I don't really see what your point here is, sorry.

it doesn´t matter how Valve defines offline mode if the common opinion differ greatly, the common meaning will / can be used.

If they find it ethically wrong, that's their own non-technical opinion. If they think it does anything nefarius, burden is on them to prove this.

was not the topic, nor discussed

They are not Steam, are not Valve, are not Firaxis (the programmers). They are the least trustworthy source for this information.

again, my primary contract partner will be 2K (and Firaxis is a part of 2K and therefore included), not Valve. I want to buy and play Civ5, not "steam".

I don't really understand this, can you explain?

nope - it was a reused information, here the original post
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9216703&postcount=203

If you're so inclined you can use a packet sniffer (Wireshark) and find out if it is anything more than low-level TCP communication. Until you have this proof, the assumption that it is anything more than basic low-level network packets is simply baseless.

Also your opinion what happens is only an assumption, you know? And because you know as much as we about steam interna, also baseless.

They can block Steam with a firewall or disconnect from the Internet.

again this was not the topic, nor discussed

I can see why those who are completely uninformed would be confused and frankly this is 2k's fault. They never should have addressed the problem like this because people (mistakenly) think 2k are in a strong position to make statements about Steam.

[warning another hyperbole]You know, if i buy a car, i will always ask the component supplier how the ABS, etc works. Never ask your car dealer, because he can´t know.[hyperbole end] (yes i have also a software version - but one hyperbole should be enough)

Btw: you missed that the second halve wasn´t adressed at you. Sorry for my laziness causing this misunderstanding

 

[Xiao Xiong]

What's the problem here?

I can put steam into offline mode and play my games while not connected to the internet. I can prove it: I can unplug the cable and shut off the wifi and play my games. I have played civ4 on an airplane at 30k freaking feet on my laptop. It works!

Well not the online ones, obviously, but offline ones like CIV4 and portal all of which I bought through steam. For the online games I would never want to play disconnected from steam because the anti-cheat service they provide is highly worth it.

If you're really paranoid about steam calling home to check for updates and such and are terrified that communists have put chlorine in your drinking water then I suggest you set up a firewall rule to block access to steam network after you install your game.

Big deal being made over nothing.

 

[Kaelic]

Big deal being made over nothing.

This

 

[tom2050]

Again, accusations of paranoia; you did not follow the statements Ori originally made (likely on purpose). Ori stated that Valve was not forthcoming in their statements that Steam indeed connects in some way or another to the Steam Network. Valve must have a different definition they are applying to 'Steam Network'. And the comments made by 2K Liz were not in-line with what happened either.

Defend them all you want, but that was the point, not over what it sent; or that it tried to connect. Missing the originally point of the argument makes it so you are defending something that was never originally accused.

 

[Chalks]

There you go again... you don't know how Steam defines steam networks... it is most likely a spin on words.

A Steam Network at first glance means connecting to anything that is Steam (to most people). This implies that is does not attempt a connection at all.

Steam has likely defined Steam Network as something completely different, to make it so they can do w/e they want.

2K ELIZABETH got it wrong, she doesn't even know what the hell it means, and she works for Take2.

No, it means you can play your games without logging into the steam network. Offline mode makes this possible.

That's what it means.

Nobody cares what you read into it. If you read something into it that's not true then you're wrong.

You can rant about your poor little baffled head all you want, it's not their fault that you see something that says "you can play your games without connecting to the steam network" and assume that this means it will never ever attempt to send a single packet to the network.

All it says is it won't prevent you from playing if you don't connect. And that's true.

So, you misunderstood how it works. I'm sure you'll get over it with time.

It is bad for you to be in a paranoid wet dream with Steam all the time, waking up and getting a splash of cold water would do a person good.

That's hilarious - you're one of those "I know you are but what am I" people. "Oh!! He used the word paranoid in his post!! I need to use it in mine even though it doesn't make any sense".

Don't forget to cry about everyone else using the word afterwards too, just in case you weren't completely laughable already. Ah, I see you're already doing that - you're way ahead of me!

Moderator Action: not appropriate discourse for the forums

 

[tom2050]

No, it means you can play your games without logging into the steam network. Offline mode makes this possible.

That's what it means.

Nobody cares what you read into it. If you read something into it that's not true then you're wrong.

Paranoid "get shivers up the leg thinking about Steam" assumptions. It says this:

What is Offline Mode?

Offline Mode allows you to play games through Steam without reconnecting to the Steam Network every time you wish to play -

And therefore, they should have stated "Offline Mode allows you to play games through Steam without logging into the Steam Network every time you wish to play - "

That would have made it perfectly clear of what it actually does. I could really care less either way myself. I don't get "excited" over DRM programs.

 

[tom2050]

That's hilarious - you're one of those "I know you are but what am I" people. "Oh!! He used the word paranoid in his post!! I need to use it in mine even though it doesn't make any sense".

Don't forget to cry about everyone else using the word afterwards too, just in case you weren't completely laughable already. Ah, I see you're already doing that - you're way ahead of me!

Look at how frustrated you got, and trying to play it off with a laugh there.

You see how stupid the offensive comment of paranoia is? Then you go on about crying... I made that comment just to see the reaction, and now there it is.

But you didn't deny it? So it must be true Steam gives you exciting shivers up your leg.

Moderator Action: infraction for inappropriate comments

 

[Chalks]

Paranoid "get shivers up the leg thinking about Steam" assumptions. It says this:



And therefore, they should have stated "Offline Mode allows you to play games through Steam without logging into the Steam Network every time you wish to play - "

That would have made it perfectly clear of what it actually does. I could really care less either way myself. I don't get "excited" over DRM programs.

It doesn't log you into the Steam network to play your games in offline mode.

It sends a packet out when steam loads. It doesn't connect to the steam platform network.

You think sending a ping packet is "connecting to a network"? I think you'll find that the meaning of those words disagree! You need a username and password to connect to the steam network, otherwise you're not part of the network. I can ping the steam servers myself right now from the command prompt, that doesn't make me part of the network!

Your inability to understand words is not anyone's fault but your own.

Moderator Action: Please do not Troll the forums

 

[plesniak]

All steam really does is add one more thing to screw the game up and one more company to blame for the game not working...I have dealt with steam before and at the end of the day they don't care if your game works or not. They only care that they get paid by either u or the game company that they r distributing for. They will send u a few standard responses and if that doesn't get your game working then they figure you pirated the game and they will help u no longer.

I hate it when a company penalizes us all for the actions of a few.

If u want to have problems and be frustrated because u can't play the game u bought then buy a steam game and u will have exactly that. Boo Steam and Boo 2K for doing business with Steam... I have faithfully bought the Civ series from Civ1 to civ4 and enjoyed them all. However, I will buy no further Civs until they get rid of steam. Copy protection of some type is needed for sure but steam has proven to me that they are not acting in my best interest.

 

[The_J]

Guess what...when you instantiate an instance of the Engine class it's constructor does lots of work including the groundwork for being able to respond correctly to the HasConnection() property, so they ping the servers.

This is probably how I would have coded it and as far as the feature team are concerned the SteamCore class is a black box so they don't need to know when or if any connection is tried.

So when they are asked they will quite legitimately say, of course we don't establish a connection when you are offline. They simply don't consider what the underlying infrastructure might or might not be doing and in what order because it has zero effect on the code they are writing.

Not trying to take sides...just trying to inject the realities of designing/programming for support like this.

But if you do something like that, you should be aware of the issues and how the public sees it and consider it bad design.

I don't see how this matters. If all Steam is doing is opening a socket to test your access to the Internet, it makes this whole "debate" seem rather silly doesn't it? Has anyone actually tried sniffing the packets to see if it does anything more than establish a TCP socket?

Yes, has been observed here and here.

If you're really paranoid about steam calling home to check for updates and such and are terrified that communists have put chlorine in your drinking water then I suggest you set up a firewall rule to block access to steam network after you install your game.

Big deal being made over nothing.

You also have to think of that you're talking to users which are aware of such a thing.
Joe averageuser is not aware of it.
He will not think about it, will not know it. So saying "just do this and that" is not a solution here.

It doesn't log you into the Steam network to play your games in offline mode.

It sends a packet out when steam loads. It doesn't connect to the steam platform network.

You don't now until you've decrypted the packages .

 

[Commander Bello]

It doesn't log you into the Steam network to play your games in offline mode.

This, as far as we currently know, is correct.

It sends a packet out when steam loads. It doesn't connect to the steam platform network.

This is not correct.

As Ori has stated, there is traffic going up and down.
The Steam servers are adressed and they respond. This is almost the universal definition of the word "connection" - an action triggers a reaction.

If there wouldn't have been any downloaded packages, then we might say that the program only tries to connect.
Since it gets an answer, it is connected.

I can call up CivFanatics without sending my username and my password, so I am not logged in. Nevertheless, I am connected, since I get a response in form of being able to read the postings here. No login necessary.

Actually, I even have to be connected to be able to deliver my password and my username. Connection is the basis for logging in.

 

[Kaelic]

Nobody disputes that Steam performs NON MANDATORY network traffic on launch in offline mode. I still don't see why this matters.

 

[ArcadicGamer]

I'm talking about Valve and ActiBlizzard the publishers. You're talking about Valve and Blizzard the developers.

Valve and Blizzard the developers are awesome. That has nothing to do with their publishing sides.


What I am "paranoid" about- is what if a mistake happens. The way Steam is set up, if I assert my rights via chargeback or lawsuit, I would lose ALL my games on that service. Steam could fatfinger a 0 on my charge. Mistakes do happen. I shouldn't have to pay for them.

I would love it if Valve games were on Impulse or Gamersgate, and not using Steam DRM.

The fact you were OK with your games being locked for a week- you really are whipped. I'd be furious- it's not up to Valve to babysit my credit card. If I want to spend $500 in a week on games, it's my prerogative, and it shouldn't cause my account to be locked.

(I don't spend $500 in a year on games)

Bah, i had a nice long post eaten by the lag gods. I blame Stardock

Long story short, I was on vacation shortly after i got the new games locked. It wasn't an issue, because i didn't have access anyway. Its in their best intrest to protect you anyway, because the
PR is really bad when you let possibly stolen CC's rampage your servers.

Valve and Blizzard (before the merger) are not publishers. STEAM is a publishing tool for Valve, but the point remains. Its in their best intrest to keep customers happy. Both of these companies have no equal in consumer appreciation department. If STEAM was terrible, there would be no CSS servers, no TF2 class updates, no Left 4 Dead, because without the ease of STEAM, these games could not exist on the level they do today. 2k has realized this fact, and outsourced it to steamworks. You should realize it to.

 

[jrregan]

Nobody disputes that Steam performs NON MANDATORY network traffic on launch in offline mode. I still don't see why this matters.

What significant application / platform doesn't have communication with it's servers? None. Not in this FB world. It's the direct lies / deception that need to be to tracked and disclosed. Of course in this AIG world we know nothing will be done about it.