Is the Steam DRM just a one-time verification check? Or is it much more?

[Commander Bello]

Because it looks to me like people are taking the contradiction between a statement made by 2K elizabeth (hint: The clue is in the name. Not a valve employee. Also, PR/marketing, not even a technical employee.) and that Steam does 1kb of traffic around startup to mean lies, evil and deception are taking place.

Just for you:

I just triple confirmed this with the devs and Valve.

Either, you try to convince us that Elizabeth was lying (which would show an impressive amount of disrespect) or that neither the developers nor the Valve personell have a clue about Steam software.

 

[Chalks]

Which, in offline mode, is an unwanted "feature".

you can "unwant" until the end of time. In offline mode, you're not meant to have an internet connection, because that's what offline is for.

If you misuse offline mode to play some sort of technological hide and seek with the system then yes, it probably is going to work in ways that are sub-optimal for what ever it is you are trying to achieve.

You're already apparently using offline mode out of some delusion that Steam is going to do terrible things to your computer and it cannot be trusted. Why on earth are you trusting that it'll go into offline mode when you click the button? It's probably already all up in your documents stealing your pictures of puppies.

What's your position here? "I'm too paranoid about what steam is going to do to trust it, but I'm not going to block it with my firewall because I trust this particular button"?

Those mischievous devils! Apparently it didn't occur to them that someone would be as inconsistently paranoid as yourself!

 

[Senethro]

You're maybe fine but others are taking it as evidence that lies and deception are taking place, and that means Steam must be doing something bad.

It is Offline Mode. It works offline. Thats why they call it that.

People are quibbling over a kilobyte.

 

[Senethro]

Just for you:

Either, you try to convince us that Elizabeth was lying (which would show an impressive amount of disrespect) or that neither the developers nor the Valve personell have a clue about Steam software.

This appeared while I was typing, this is exactly what I was talking about.

Why is it that 2K eliz is the gospel truth on technical matters relating to Valve's Steam? The message has filtered through at least 3 people of different companies and professional training and we don't know exactly what was asked each step of the way.

If meaning has been lost or the question incompletely answered it doesn't mean theres anything sinister at work.

 

[Commander Bello]

If you misuse offline mode to play some sort of technological hide and seek with the system then yes, it probably is going to work in ways that are sub-optimal for what ever it is you are trying to achieve.

So, according to your words, making use of the built-in "offline mode" while technically having established an internet connection counts as "misuse"?

That much about "paranoia", "tin hats" and whatnotever.

 

[Senethro]

Its misuse in the sense of sub-optimal use of service use, not in the "I pass a value judgement that this is bad" misuse.

 

[Chalks]

So, according to your words, making use of the built-in "offline mode" while technically having established an internet connection counts as "misuse"?

That much about "paranoia", "tin hats" and whatnotever.

Erm, it's a mode designed for when you're offline, so yeah, it's not what it's designed for.

 

[Kaelic]

If I write an application that phones home for activation, but offers an ability to "go offline" and not phone home, but the application on start still checks if the phone-home-server exists (without doing authentication) it is somehow breaking a sacred vow to be offline?

Do you realise how insane this sounds? Do you even comprehend how easy it is to open a socket to a server and cause your monitoring to make it look like an application is accessing the internet without actually doing any communication? Opening a socket to test Internet access and server status != ONLINE VERIFICATION. So what is the real issue? Please elaborate.

Steam is not performing online validation when in "offline-mode". Steam still accesses sockets when you are online for various reasons we are unaware of. This access is not required for Steam to function or the games within Steam to function while in "offline-mode". So what is your problem with it doing this? Do you realise how many applications on your system access the Internet at any given time? Just install a fresh PC with a paranoid firewall and you'll probably have to approve quite a big list of day-to-day apps.

Checking for updates, checking server status, just plain checking if you have Internet access are all reasonable things for an app to do, even when it is not using the Internet for verification. How do you think they should phrase the feature?

"Offline verification mode for playing games when offline, however the application will continue to poll our server for potential updates, server status and various other duties in the event that the user is actually online while in offline mode in case they may want to go online at the point of turning it on."

Much better name, they should put that next to the option on the menu.

On another note, thanks for the welcome. I read a lot but don't post, this finally got me to post as I'm a programmer that has worked with the Steam API and Steam app submission process and find the whole thing incredibly good.

 

[Chalks]

On another note, thanks for the welcome. I read a lot but don't post, this finally got me to post as I'm a programmer that has worked with the Steam API and Steam app submission process and find the whole thing incredibly good.

That's cool, it will be interesting to have your insights into the system in these threads.

Is this indy/big name development work with steam or just hobby stuff?

 

[PieceOfMind]

As for my own take on this issue,

I have noticed with my use of Steam that the usual thing to do is run the Steam client (perhaps at system startup if you so wish) with the purpose of establishing a connection to Steam's servers and so access most of the features the platform provides. As is often the case when my system starts up because I use a not-so-good wifi card, Steam has trouble on its first attempt so I am frequently presented with the "What to do - retry or go offline" dialogue box.

To me, the offline mode only seemed to be "in effect" after the client succeeded or failed in its attempt to contact a Steam server. For this purpose I did not personally see any apparent contradiction.

However when we examine the technicalities of the posts made by 2K Elizabeth and perhaps also Valve employees, we see there are inconsistencies (albeit small ones!) about the exact function of offline mode.

I absolutely agree that Steam is primarily a platform designed for people who have a mostly on internet connection. That is a completely reasonable thing for Valve to do and I would be surprised if they tried to cater roughly half-half for those who want online and those who want offline Steam for their computers.

The inconsistencies in statements, as I said, are quite small but they are there. If you think they are not very important then say so. There's nothing unreasonable about holding that opinion. However I think it would show a lot more respect if you avoided calling those who did consider these to be of a bit more important as irrationally paranoid or as Senethro put it, "trying to prove Steam is evil". That sort of commentary just turns what is basically a non argument into a constant argument of poorly read posts and poorly considered replies.

Personally the only negative experience I've had so far with Steam's offline mode is the instance where my internet connection failed around the time Steam needed to update itself and I was temporarily locked out of Steam until an internet connection could be established again. This is a real problem, but one that understandably many people are able to shrug off as minor.
I would imagine this particular "hung update" problem has something to do with the recent discussion about what exactly happens when the Steam client is first run by the user. If it was truly able to start up completely offline then I fail to see why something as simple as not being able to download an update should make the program completely unusable and unresponsive.

I am not at all surprised to see that Steam attempts to contact server/s when it starts up but that is because it is what it has looked like when I've been using it. I agree with ori that I think it's important 2K should be a tad clearer about the function of Steam's offline mode. Not many people would ever find out about it and most probably will not care but it's not the point. If they know the Steam system better than we do, which hopefully they do if they have a strong business relationship with Valve, then it would be reasonable to expect the information coming from them is accurate and not misleading, even if it is on minor details.

In reality I'd imagine 2K Elizabeth simply did not know about the fact that is under inspection in the recent discussion - that Steam briefly contacts servers even when starting up in offline mode. However it's not beyond her to find out a bit more about this. Only good can come of learning more about the system that is to be used for civ5, both for its fans and the publisher 2K.

It's tedious nit picking.

To think that a company (selected at random, based on no previous history or evidence what so ever) is going to do something illegal if you give it access to your system is paranoid.

That's all it is. Baseless paranoia.

Sure, you can have a problem with me saying that. You see that thing people dig up their gardens with? It's called a spade.

Please, show me where ori suggested a company (e.g. Valve) is going to do something illegal. He was very clear in expressing that he doesn't actually have a problem with the data they are likely collecting (if any), only that they are a bit misleading in their statements about how Steam functions while in offline mode.

 

[Greybriar]

From Chalks:

No, read it again, in context rather than just picking on random parts to highlight:



If you do not have an internet connection steam will start without one. "you will be able to play offline without a connection", in direct response to someone claiming that you need to have an internet connection in order to use offline mode (what?).

If you do not have an internet connection, you can use offline mode to play the game without connecting to the steam servers.

It's not complicated - offline mode is designed for use if you are offline. If you are in offline mode, steam will be unable to connect to the servers.

Steam has an in built web browser which connects to the steam store when the client is loaded by default. There are all sorts of things that it will try to poll for an internet connection for.

That is not why offline mode exists. Yes, you are trying to use offline mode for some sort of tin foil hat "oh noes they are in my computers watching my civ strategies!!" thing, but it's designed to allow you to play games if you have no internet connection. That's what it does. That's what it is.

So congratulations on being able to confuse a sensible person by asking a question, expecting them to address it from the point of view of an irrationally paranoid person rather than just the point of view of someone with no internet access.

I would pat you on the back but I am afraid you may misinterpret it as me trying to steal your organs.

From Steam Support:

Offline Mode

Question

What is Steam's Offline Mode and how do I use it?

Answer

The Steam client application's files must be updated to allow for the use of Offline Mode. If your game's status is "100% - Ready" but you receive the message "This game cannot be started in Offline Mode" when attempting to play offline, the Steam client application's files need to be updated.

Firewall settings preventing Steam from updating itself are the most common cause for this problem. Please see the Troubleshooting Network Connectivity topic for instructions to configure your network so Steam may update if you encounter any difficulties with Offline Mode.

What is Offline Mode?

Offline Mode allows you to play games through Steam without reconnecting to the Steam Network every time you wish to play - this is particularly useful if you do not plan on playing over the internet and would prefer not to download new updates for your single-player games.

Please note that you must connect to the Steam Network and test each of the games you would like to use in Offline Mode at least once to set up your account and configure Offline Mode on your machine.

Using Offline Mode

Please follow the instructions below to configure Offline Mode on your machine:

• 1. Start Steam online - make sure the Remember my password box on the login window is checked
• 2. Verify that all game files are completely updated - you can see the update status for a game under the Library section (when the game shows as 100% - Ready it is ready to be played in Offline Mode)
• 3. Launch the game you would like to play offline to verify that there are no further updates to download - shut down the game and return to Steam once you have confirmed that the game can be played
• 4. Go to Steam > Settings to ensure the Do not store account information on this computer option is not selected
• 5. From the main Steam window, go to the Steam menu and select Go Offline
• 6. Click OK to restart Steam in Offline Mode

 

[Chalks]

From Chalks:

From Steam Support:

Yep, there you go. It allows you to play games without having to connect to the steam network.

Absolutely no mention of whether or not it will attempt to poll any servers in this mode. It simply means that you don't have to connect to the steam network in order to play. And that's all it says.

You will notice the fact that it doesn't say "This is particularly useful if you don't want to send any packets or data what so ever to the steam servers". It says it will disable auto updates and online play, which it succeeds in doing.

 

[Senethro]

*copies and pastes a load of text*

Touche Steam fanbois, better luck next time. Checkmate. Heh.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Indeed, I am yet to see any inconsistencies from Steam's side of things. I don't automatically presume offline mode to imply complete disabling of any contact attempts even if this is the standard used in other applications. I would expect the offline mode means all non-essential (whatever essential means in this case!) communications with Valve are avoided.

What it is that Steam does in its initial communication is unknown to me. IMO the quote from Steam support looks fairly confusing for what I thought would or should probably be a pretty simple thing. Why should there be so many hoops to get Steam working in offline mode? From a design viewpoint, as soon as I have to search for such critical information as that for getting offline mode to work I consider it to be somewhat of a failure. That or it's intentionally difficult for some reason or other.

To illustrate that failure, the day I was unable to use Steam because of a connection problem was simply inexcusable because to my knowledge it is a very common problem. It suggests to me there is a reason this problem can't be avoided else it would have been addressed long ago. Why is it possible for Steam to become unusable and unresponsive (to the point of not even allowing offline mode to work) just because it is failing to make communications with its server/s?

 

[Kaelic]

That's cool, it will be interesting to have your insights into the system in these threads.

Is this indy/big name development work with steam or just hobby stuff?

Is there an in-between option? The studio I work at does downloadable titles for XBLA, PSN, Steam but we're part of a larger corporation. So somewhere between Bedroom Indie and AAA I suppose.

I stopped reading this thread at about page 5, was it ever concluded that Valve cannot control the mods you use? I can tell you without a shadow of doubt that the way Steam works they have no access to stuff like that. Steam is not aware of any files outside of what is deployed with the game. It makes sure these are the latest and that's it, any other crap (mods) you put in the directory that the Civ5 binary loads is up to Civ5 to deal with. So ultimately Firaxis controls what mods you can and can't use.

I can also tell you Firaxis would have a hard time doing so at that unless they had an official mod server/approval process with phoning home, but that's a lot of hassle just to control what mods people use.

 

[Commander Bello]

If I write an application that phones home for activation, but offers an ability to "go offline" and not phone home, but the application on start still checks if the phone-home-server exists (without doing authentication) it is somehow breaking a sacred vow to be offline?

To a certain degree, yes.

Either "offline mode" has the meaning of staying offline or it doesn't.

Yet, it is funny that you are mentioning "authentication". So far, this has not been mentioned by anybody else in the recent part of the discussion, as far as I can see.

Do you realise how insane this sounds? Do you even comprehend how easy it is to open a socket to a server and cause your monitoring to make it look like an application is accessing the internet without actually doing any communication? Opening a socket to test Internet access and server status != ONLINE VERIFICATION. So what is the real issue? Please elaborate.

You seem to put much effort in mentioning over and over again that no authentication/verification will be performed. Noticed.

The rest of the quote is quite similar to blaming someone for locking his door when it would be so easy to break the window. Which is a valid statement, yet doesn't make door locking obsolete.

Steam is not performing online validation when in "offline-mode".

As having said above already, your statement has been noticed, thanks.

Steam still accesses sockets when you are online for various reasons we are unaware of. This access is not required for Steam to function or the games within Steam to function while in "offline-mode".

To both highlighted sections I completely agree.

The question is, why is it done at all?

So what is your problem with it doing this?

You're a programmer and don't have a problem with things which according to your words are unnecessary for the program to work? Thanks, you've just made my day.

Checking for updates, checking server status, just plain checking if you have Internet access are all reasonable things for an app to do, even when it is not using the Internet for verification.

Once again?

"Offline verification mode for playing games when offline, however the application will continue to poll our server for potential updates, server status and various other duties in the event that the user is actually online while in offline mode in case they may want to go online at the point of turning it on."

Much better name, they should put that next to the option on the menu.

"Offline verification mode"??? Didn't you just say, it wouldn't do this? Was this just a mistake or was it based on your experience as programmer working with Steam?

Well, anyway, the programmers of my company are trying hard to optimise our programs.
One of the things they are doing is to avoid unnecessy tasks to be performed.
This actually is something which a programmer should have learned in the basic classes already.

All of what you have mentioned is perfectly fine when being online (technically) and having put the program into "online mode".
None of them are necessary, when the user has clearly stated the he wants the program to run in "offline mode". And you have acknowledged this fact above.

(...) this finally got me to post as I'm a programmer that has worked with the Steam API and Steam app submission process and find the whole thing incredibly good.

You may have been in a hurry, but you forgot to mention that there won't be any authentication/verification when being offline.

 

[Kaelic]

Why is it possible for Steam to become unusable and unresponsive (to the point of not even allowing offline mode to work) just because it is failing to make communications with its server/s?

Bad programming?

 

[Chalks]

Blibdyblibdybloo

There is a difference between "online verification" and "offline verification". Not having the first does not make the second impossible. I believe this is the root of your confusion here.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Bad programming?

True that. I still think there has to be a reason. I mean, the people at Valve are certainly not incompetent with this sort of thing, as I'm sure you'd agree. There has to be a reason for this and I am definitely not suggesting it is sinister in any way - just that it is hidden for some reason from us.

 

[Kaelic]

blah

Do you still feel the need for me to reply given that the Steam support link shows Steam claims in no way to perform no Internet access while in offline mode?

You'll also note most of my comments were speculation to counter the speculation assuming ill-intent or lies.