Is there any point in choosing anything other than tradition when starting off?

[Moriarte]

I like both trees. Both can help tech to universities before t.115 equally fast. Personally, i think liberty is as strong, provided you can get aqueducts between t.90-100. Also between t.115-160 you have to start warring with liberty, otherwise it's advantages start to deteriorate significantly.

Fast workers & free settler are as strong as the food bonuses from tradition; happiness bonus is the same; culture bonus can't be compared directly, but liberty's is as good in a domination game; great engineer for (say) NC is undoubtedly weaker than 2 free late game wonders, yet in many situations it is better to have sub t.80 NC and snowball from there, instead of t.100 NC and 20 turns slower education. Minor things, like republic and oligarchy can't be compared directly, i think, and should be factored in with the big ones.

No doubt tradition is stronger in theory, but in a case with multiple (5-6) unique luxes, plenty of land to settle and generally low production i would put my money on liberty.

Also, i think managing tradition properly is slightly harder, due to the need to sink huge amount of hammers into three settlers. (I know i can buy one, but not always)

 

[Matthew.]

Yep, if you cannot expand past 4 cities you are wasting Liberty's potential and may as well have gone Tradition.

 

[Cromagnus]

I like both trees. Both can help tech to universities before t.115 equally fast. Personally, i think liberty is as strong, provided you can get aqueducts between t.90-100. Also between t.115-160 you have to start warring with liberty, otherwise it's advantages start to deteriorate significantly.

Fast workers & free settler are as strong as the food bonuses from tradition; happiness bonus is the same; culture bonus can't be compared directly, but liberty's is as good in a domination game; great engineer for (say) NC is undoubtedly weaker than 2 free late game wonders, yet in many situations it is better to have sub t.80 NC and snowball from there, instead of t.100 NC and 20 turns slower education. Minor things, like republic and oligarchy can't be compared directly, i think, and should be factored in with the big ones.

No doubt tradition is stronger in theory, but in a case with multiple (5-6) unique luxes, plenty of land to settle and generally low production i would put my money on liberty.

Also, i think managing tradition properly is slightly harder, due to the need to sink huge amount of hammers into three settlers. (I know i can buy one, but not always)

I agree, I like both trees. I don't see how you get aqueducts by t100 though... so many other priorities! What is your build order to get there? I read your Liberty Domination thread, and saw no mention of aqueducts. Or maybe I missed it. Also, I struggle to complete Liberty by t80. Are you delaying your third and 4th city until you have the -33%/city culture benefit? Or is t80 only achievable when you get a culture ruin, a culture pantheon, or ally a cultural CS? (all of which require luck) The math on 4 monuments and 4 cities doesn't work out to getting 6 policies by t80... it seems.

Also, happiness bonus from Liberty is inferior to Tradition, sorry. There is no situation where +1happy/10 and -1unhappy/2 doesn't generate more happiness than +1/city and -5%/city.

I do agree that in the long run, the culture bonus favors Liberty in Domination, assuming you're annexing cities.

I still maintain that the primary benefit of Liberty is securing land, which is essential on Deity, so it hardly matters that Tradition is "better". ;-)

 

[Cromagnus]

Yep, if you cannot expand past 4 cities you are wasting Liberty's potential and may as well have gone Tradition.

On Deity there frequently isn't room (or good enough land) to expand past 4 cities without conquest. But that's exactly why Liberty is good. I can sometimes get a 5th city out with Liberty if I chain-build Settlers and plant on unique luxuries. But that's often risky... because now you're spread out and you don't have enough units to defend yourself. If you wait until you have more units, the window of opportunity may be gone.

 

[Gort]

I really think happiness is key in this game. I frequently find it to be the biggest limiting factor in how I play my game - I only found cities that will get me fresh luxuries, I raze cities I conquer unless they have wonders or new luxuries because they cost me happiness otherwise, I target policies and city states that will give me happiness more than any others...

And the simple fact is that Tradition provides the most happiness out of Liberty and Honour (Piety is arguable, but you'd have to focus the entire religion on happiness to equal Tradition, and Tradition has other bonuses as well that put it ahead).

Think about it - Liberty gets 1 happy per city. Honour gets 1 happy per city - if you're willing to station a military unit there all the time and pay the maintenance for it. Tradition gets happiness equal to half the capital's size. A size 30 capital is trivially easy to achieve, and will give you 15 happiness for free, no roads required, no military units required.

So to match a mediocre Tradition, Honour and Liberty need a fifteen-city empire to generate equal happiness, which just isn't really feasible most of the time, at least until the game's basically decided.

I would like to see Liberty and Honour buffed to two happiness per city, that way you break even at seven and a half cities in your empire, which seems a lot more reasonable.

 

[Krajzen]

Liberty can be damn dangerous in the hands of good multiplayer... player (multi - player? multiplayer gamer?)
I still remember this guy with Liberty who managed to have 6 cities in ~60 turns on fast speed, and high happiness

Also, Piety is really cool. Guaranteed religion, free great prophet, 20% cheaper pagodas, +25% to gold income in practically all empire (temples) and reformation belief are damn cool.

The true loser here is Honor. I cannot imagine any situation in which I would take it, with the exception of Mongols/Huns/Zulu.

 

[Cromagnus]

I really think happiness is key in this game. I frequently find it to be the biggest limiting factor in how I play my game - I only found cities that will get me fresh luxuries, I raze cities I conquer unless they have wonders or new luxuries because they cost me happiness otherwise, I target policies and city states that will give me happiness more than any others...

And the simple fact is that Tradition provides the most happiness out of Liberty and Honour (Piety is arguable, but you'd have to focus the entire religion on happiness to equal Tradition, and Tradition has other bonuses as well that put it ahead).

Think about it - Liberty gets 1 happy per city. Honour gets 1 happy per city - if you're willing to station a military unit there all the time and pay the maintenance for it. Tradition gets happiness equal to half the capital's size. A size 30 capital is trivially easy to achieve, and will give you 15 happiness for free, no roads required, no military units required.

So to match a mediocre Tradition, Honour and Liberty need a fifteen-city empire to generate equal happiness, which just isn't really feasible most of the time, at least until the game's basically decided.

I would like to see Liberty and Honour buffed to two happiness per city, that way you break even at seven and a half cities in your empire, which seems a lot more reasonable.

I think +1/city and -10% unhappiness instead of -5% would really help Liberty without allowing ICS. +2/city would encourage ICS.

For Honor, I would prefer +1/military building instead of +1/garrison, because stationing units in your cities is counterproductive when you're on offense. That way you get +2 with Barracks/Armory.

 

[Cromagnus]

Liberty can be damn dangerous in the hands of good multiplayer... player (multi - player? multiplayer gamer?)
I still remember this guy with Liberty who managed to have 6 cities in ~60 turns on fast speed, and high happiness

Also, Piety is really cool. Guaranteed religion, free great prophet, 20% cheaper pagodas, +25% to gold income in practically all empire (temples) and reformation belief are damn cool.

The true loser here is Honor. I cannot imagine any situation in which I would take it, with the exception of Mongols/Huns/Zulu.

MP is a very different story. Playing on Prince against extremely competent warmongers is like the exact opposite of Deity. You can Wonder whore all you want, but boy you'll regret ignoring military. You can expand all you want, but boy you'll regret over-expansion. Etc. etc. If my connection wasn't so crappy right now (4G) and if I had larger dedicated time blocks to play, I'd be playing MP instead of Deity.

 

[Matthew.]

On Deity there frequently isn't room (or good enough land) to expand past 4 cities without conquest.

Conquest still counts as expansion

You should try pumping out archers from your second city if you plan on expanding past 4. NC will be delayed either way, so no need to rush library in the second city.

 

[Cromagnus]

Conquest still counts as expansion

You should try pumping out archers from your second city if you plan on expanding past 4. NC will be delayed either way, so no need to rush library in the second city.

Agreed. I'm just saying that Liberty, as a general opener on Deity, is usually limited to 4 cities without conquest or lucky dirt. If you're trying for a peaceful CV, SV or DV, Tradition has the advantage, because if you're stopping at 4 cities anyway.. well, there you go. I don't open Liberty unless I'm intending conquest... except maybe on an archipelago map w/ Dido or something else where the synergies of lots of cities start to outweigh the negatives. Dido can, with Liberty + Exploration + Religion, on Archipelago get a 10-city empire with enough happiness to compensate. Of course you'll end up fighting off DoWs, but you could still go wide in that limited example and stay "peaceful".

 

[Moriarte]

I agree, I like both trees. I don't see how you get aqueducts by t100 though... so many other priorities! What is your build order to get there? I read your Liberty Domination thread, and saw no mention of aqueducts. Or maybe I missed it.

Right after civil service. They're pretty cheap too. (100h, i think). Something like: construction --> philosophy --> civil service --> engineering. May skip construction if no threat is around. Caravan from engineering usually delivers food to cap.

Also, I struggle to complete Liberty by t80. Are you delaying your third and 4th city until you have the -33%/city culture benefit? Or is t80 only achievable when you get a culture ruin, a culture pantheon, or ally a cultural CS? (all of which require luck) The math on 4 monuments and 4 cities doesn't work out to getting 6 policies by t80... it seems.

Yes, culture pantheons, occasional CS friend/ally, all that helps. And no, i am not delaying, 2 settlers in a row right after the free guy. Maybe, 1-2 more later, after NC is done. There are +1 per city in liberty and a well planned golden age speed things up.

Also, happiness bonus from Liberty is inferior to Tradition, sorry. There is no situation where +1happy/10 and -1unhappy/2 doesn't generate more happiness than +1/city and -5%/city.

Happiness bonus starts to outshine tradition when you're deep behind enemy lines. Don't forget there are maps larger than standard.

 

[Cromagnus]

Right after civil service. They're pretty cheap too. (100h, i think). Something like: construction --> philosophy --> civil service --> engineering. May skip construction if no threat is around. Caravan from engineering usually delivers food to cap.



Yes, culture pantheons, occasional CS friend/ally, all that helps. And no, i am not delaying, 2 settlers in a row right after the free guy. Maybe, 1-2 more later, after NC is done. There are +1 per city in liberty and a well planned golden age speed things up.



Happiness bonus starts to outshine tradition when you're deep behind enemy lines. Don't forget there are maps larger than standard.

Just FYI, I basically followed your guide to the letter but didn't get a ruin, a pantheon or a cultural CS and as a result, didn't get the Liberty Finisher until like turn 97. It kind of makes a huge difference if you don't get NC until that late. And without one of the above, it's not possible to get it by t80.

 

[whyidie]

No doubt tradition is stronger in theory, but in a case with multiple (5-6) unique luxes, plenty of land to settle and generally low production i would put my money on liberty.

Also, i think managing tradition properly is slightly harder, due to the need to sink huge amount of hammers into three settlers. (I know i can buy one, but not always)

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but I think liberty is theoretically stronger, but practically limited as its more difficult to manage properly.

If we consider a game where happiness is not a limiting factor, doesn't libertys potential outshine tradition ? More cities, buildings, units faster. All things being equal the only thing that suffers is population at capital.

In application happiness is a limiting factor and its quite difficult to keep happiness levels where they need to be in order to found enough cities to offsets traditions growth at the capitol.

 

[Civsassin]

You know that both trees are pretty well balanced when people can argue both sides of the debate and clearly succeed with use of their favored SP trees. My $0.02 is that Tradition is always a safe bet. If you are unsure of the starting map type, Tradition allows you to get a good start regardless. I find Liberty to be a more situational map. It is excellent in an archipelago map where you have many islands to settle or if you know you have a lot of room to expand. You can usually get some good land in those circumstances. It is great fun with an archipelago start as Indonesia in particular since the first three settlements on three different islands and different than the capital makes rapid expansion even more attractive.

I almost always choose Tradition if I have a marble start, since the marble wonder bonus combined with the Tradition wonder bonus puts quite a few wonders within reach on the higher levels. Pick your wonder on King and below. I also choose Tradition if I want to get aggressive relatively early. I usually play Immortal and sometimes Emperor to experiment with different tactics or civilizations.

 

[jasper]

yea me too when I play liberty my settles get kidnaped, falling comet hits my house and I talk with a stutter.

but this never happens when I play tradition.

 

[Moriarte]

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but I think liberty is theoretically stronger, but practically limited as its more difficult to manage properly.

If we consider a game where happiness is not a limiting factor, doesn't libertys potential outshine tradition ? More cities, buildings, units faster. All things being equal the only thing that suffers is population at capital.

In application happiness is a limiting factor and its quite difficult to keep happiness levels where they need to be in order to found enough cities to offsets traditions growth at the capitol.

There is also science penalty for funding new cities, so funding more than 5 is always sub optimal. That's the killer of liberty. In theory, again.

 

[Scott Jegg]

There is also science penalty for funding new cities, so funding more than 5 is always sub optimal. That's the killer of liberty. In theory, again.

That's nonsense really. It only becomes sub optimal to settle new cities when they won't reach a point where they can create enough beakers to overcome the penalty.

Even then, it's only sub optimal from a science perspective. With the right circumtances, each new city might be putting out 4 tourism with the right faith buildings and beliefs, which is positively ideal for a culture victory.

 

[CaptainPatch]

What Scott said. The caution is like saying, "But if you add another unit, it will be costing you $1-2!" but in the long-term -- even in the relatively short term after just adding a Library or several other beaker-generating structures -- you'll be making a 10, 20, 30, 40, or even >50 per additional profit. That 1-2% is a trivial cost in comparison. Especially when you consider all of the other things a growing city provides: developed resources, money, Faith, Culture, etc.

 

[Moriarte]

That's nonsense really. It only becomes sub optimal to settle new cities when they won't reach a point where they can create enough beakers to overcome the penalty.

Even then, it's only sub optimal from a science perspective. With the right circumtances, each new city might be putting out 4 tourism with the right faith buildings and beliefs, which is positively ideal for a culture victory.

Perhaps i should have noted that i play deity exclusively.

 

[Scott Jegg]

I'm not sure what difference that makes with regards to the science penalty making settling new cities sub optimal. It's 5% regardless of difficulty level, no?

Can you explain?