Is there any point in choosing anything other than tradition when starting off?

[Moriarte]

Sure. On deity you won't be able to settle too many cities with AI expanding like crazy. Besides, you will have protect your new cities and having 7-8 early on makes it mission impossible as AI wields huge military and will hate you for expanding. Later in game it's far more benefitial to train a 8+ unit army, which can get you as many cities as you like. Early technological balance is imperative if you want to reach some mid game science target earlier than others, be it military (crossbows, artilleries, bombers) or science (public schools) or culture. So you have to snowball from the very beginning and that limits options in terms of number of cities you want to settle initially, because of the need for early NC, education, substantial army, etc.

 

[Cromagnus]

I'm not sure what difference that makes with regards to the science penalty making settling new cities sub optimal. It's 5% regardless of difficulty level, no?

Can you explain?

Well, for one thing, settling new cities with unique luxuries is very difficult beyond 5 on Deity, and happiness is a killer. For another, it's very hard to get any of the wonders that would relieve the burden, like Notre Dame, etc. And every new city you found is 1 population, contributing way less than 5% of your beakers until you get at least 4 pop and a library. So, the *cost* of founding a new city is really: 7 happiness, a monument, granary, library, 3-5 turns of culture, and 3-5 turns of tech. IMHO.

The other thing to remember about settling new cities is that it sets you back on whatever National Wonders you haven't finished yet. So, the "science penalty" for adding a 7th city is that you now have to rush-buy a university, or you can't finish Oxford. I mean, above the obvious 5%. The last thing you want to do when founding an 8th city is rush buy library, monument, colosseum, market, barracks, university or police station. Often you need to make more than one of those to restart your NW, which will also take significantly longer because you have 8 cities. Universities are usually the crux of the issue because of the timing. Right when you'd want a 7th city, even if there were room for it you'd be interfering with the completion of Oxford.

Liberty *is* nerfed right now, because of the science penalty, and because of the nerfs to local happiness, etc. etc.

It's just not *as nerfed* as Piety or Honor. Whereas, Tradition has gotten more appealing with every patch/update.

Liberty is still very viable on Deity because of the value of getting a city out on turn 33, another on turn 40, and another on turn 45. (Pretty much typical if you go Scout, Monument, even without a culture ruin, assuming you build your capital on a hill)

EDIT: Also, what Moriarte said. He knows Liberty a lot better than I do.

 

[Pembroke]

Liberty *is* nerfed right now, because of the science penalty, and because of the nerfs to local happiness, etc. etc.

It's just not *as nerfed* as Piety or Honor. Whereas, Tradition has gotten more appealing with every patch/update.

Pretty much that. Tradition dominates and Liberty is the close second. You can take Liberty and prosper with it. It works, and isn't even that bad in absolute terms, but it's just not as good as Tradition plus Tradition isn't affected that much by your luck in the surrounding map.

I wonder, what if Liberty was buffed a small nudge upwards? When they nerfed Liberty they moved the free settler one policy later. I think this was good because the free settler was way too powerful at its former position. The growth goes exponentially and early turns matter the most. So, we should leave the settler where it's now. However, there's still the other free unit: the worker. No-one really bothers with it in the new set-up. It's in the first tier, sure, but that's still too late for a free worker to matter that much so it's not an incentive to choose Liberty.

But, what if that free worker came from the Liberty opener instead?

Would that make you think about between Tradition and Liberty? It'd be still early turns and would have thus more value and maybe allow you to build something else in those first turns where every hammer and food counts. This would go nicely with the purpose of Liberty: fast expansion.

Enough? Too much? The effect could be fine tuned by removing the +1 culture/city from the opener or by having something else in Citizenship as the free worker got bumped earlier.

 

[Wodan]

12 or 14 pop in your capital is not what a Tradition play is about. At size 30 in your capital (a more realistic goal) and size 20 in three other cities, Aristocracy will give you 6 happiness and Monarchy will give you 15. Meritocracy doesn't match that until you have 20 cities connected to your capital by City Connections.

Perhaps I misunderstood the question of this thread. It's about choosing your first policy tree, no?

Even with Caravans, it's going to be a while before the capitol is size 30.

Now, if we're talking late game, then if your empire isn't large with Liberty as your choice of policy trees, you're probably doing it wrong. Large empires have totally different dynamics than small ones. For example, a large empire is going to be using much more of scalable mechanics such as religion, e.g., the Religious Center belief (+2 per city). So, a Tradition size 30 capitol is getting +15 ... meanwhile, a Liberty empire with 20 cities and Religious Centers is getting +59

All that doesn't belong in this thread... we're not talking about late game dynamics. But if we want to open those doors then we should start another thread. And, we should be prepared to discuss all the merits of small vs large late game empires.

But let's be realistic, there's just way more happiness, growth and gold in Tradition.

I didn't say a word about growth and gold. Was talking about the happiness benefit. Nor did I say the happiness benefit is a decision maker... actually just the opposite: I said the happiness benefit is not a factor and shouldn't even be in the discussion of "what's the best first policy tree."

 

[Le Sage]

I keep jumping between the trees too. Opening up and then moving on. Then again, I play this game as an idiot and I often fall for perks that seem good at the moment

In my latest game I finished Tradition quite early though.

 

[Autoclave]

I believe that Germany is very decent with Honour, at least anything below immortal.

 

[Civsassin]

Properly played, I do not think one is better than another. When I say properly played, I mean under the right circumstances -- map type and size , civ, difficulty level, and, of course, strategy/tactics. The bottom line is patience. Tradition is an instant gratification SP tree. It lets you develop you capital and first four cities quickly. I think it is an excellent tree for war mongering. Liberty, on the other hand, is for the patient. I think that is why a lot of players prefer Tradition; they are not patient players. With Liberty, you have to understand that it will take some time to get your production, science, happiness, and national wonders up. With patience and proper play, Liberty can be very powerful.