Is your job divisible?

[Truronian]

My job (maths teacher) is an weird one. I work long hours during term time: probably about 50-55 hours a week. Aspects of what I do in those 50ish hours could be done by other people in my place of work, others could not.

There are quite a few things that would not happen if I didn't do them. That's not because other people aren't capable of doing them, but because there is the capacity in the school. A good example of this would be intervention groups for Y11s. If I didn't give up my time to help kids outside of lessons, no-one would.

On a grander scale, I am completely replaceable. I imagine my school will be someone disappointed when I leave, as I have a fairly good rep. They will be able to find someone else to do the job though, particularly if I leave during the main season for teachers changing schools.

 

[Zelig]

So in Canada is it common to have salaried employees who also get paid an overtime premium rate?

In the US, if an employer pays someone a salary it is usually because they are classified as "exempt"* from overtime and thus not entitled (or paid) overtime wages. They work 72 hours one week and 40 the next, they get the same 2 week paycheck.

*rightly or wrongly...often wrongly

Mostly it's a union thing, union employees have to be salaried, and employees classified as exempt aren't allowed in the union.

I'm not union, but I contracted with my company before being brought on as salary, and my salaried contract contains a specific number of hours to work - I don't track hours very closely (plus or minus), but if I'm going to be significantly over for a specific reason then I do track and I invoice my company, same as I do for other expenses.

 

[warpus]

In the US, if an employer pays someone a salary it is usually because they are classified as "exempt"* from overtime and thus not entitled (or paid) overtime wages. They work 72 hours one week and 40 the next, they get the same 2 week paycheck.

So basically.. people are being asked to work for free. That's horrible, unless I'm reading the above incorrectly.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

So basically.. people are being asked to work for free. That's horrible, unless I'm reading the above incorrectly.

You're correct, that is exactly what happens to many (if not most) salaried employees in the US.

Similarly, many non-engineering interns don't get paid at all for their work even though Federal law is clearly on their side.

 

[warpus]

Well, I'm never going to work in the U.S. then. Forget about it.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Yeah, it's not the best system of protection that we have for workers in the US for sure.

Illram (iirc) explained to me the vagaries of the whole exempt/non-exempt salaried thing and it's essentially a way for employers to get free labor out of their workers. Even in cases where employees should be non-exempt, they are often classified as exempt and unless they band together and sue their employer (that actually happened for one group of programmers at my aerospace job) then there is no real recourse.

 

[JollyRoger]

It is hard to get employers to properly classify employees as exempt and non-exempt. On top of that, if you classify them as exempt, you are theoretically paying for their work product, not their time, but companies still get strict about trying to dock pay for showing up "late" or missing a half day.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Yup. And they complain if you didn't pull 50+ hours in a given week even if they did all their work.

It can really suck.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The programmers I worked with were able to prove they were non-exempt because they claimed they had no authority to make decisions, they only did what they were told to do and couldn't independently change anything from their instructions.

I'm not real sure on the details, but from what I understand that was what their case hinged on when they sued their employer (it was Boeing at the time but the facility has since been bought by a new company). They had to band together and collectively sue the company and it was very messy since they were not and are not in a union.


For some reason, employers that will allow their floor/factory workers to unionize will not let their engineering/programming staff do the same. Why is that?

 

[Esperr]

I feel like it should be, but im treated as if its not. They could easily send me home and have me on call but chose to keep me there instead when there are plenty of other very capable people there to initially handle patients. Im really just there for signing meds and the one in a million cases that can wait anyway.

 

[Esperr]

It is hard to get employers to properly classify employees as exempt and non-exempt. On top of that, if you classify them as exempt, you are theoretically paying for their work product, not their time, but companies still get strict about trying to dock pay for showing up "late" or missing a half day.

This so much. This was an argument we had to make at my old hospital, they were cutting our pay for being late for a job that we didn't need to be on time for.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

This so much. This was an argument we had to make at my old hospital, they were cutting our pay for being late for a job that we didn't need to be on time for.

Did you win? Did you have to sue?

 

[warpus]

I have a friend who works for Yahoo mail and lives in silicon valley. He makes 6 figures but works.. well, his job never seems to stop. He wakes up at 7am, goes to work, comes home 6-7pm, goes out to a fancy restaurant for dinner, plays with his cat, and goes to sleep.. He is constantly on call and works weekends and evenings. He has no free time for anything - but he makes really good money.

When I was in California a couple years ago, I met up with him. He took me out to an amazing sushi restaurant in San Francisco - best sushi I've ever had. Anyway, he tried to convince me to move out there and get a job. "Uhhh, no way dude" was my response. I value my free time. I'd rather be paid 30% of what he's getting paid and be able to travel, be able to have free time, not have to work overtime, NOT have to work and not get paid for it...

And from what he tells me that is the norm over there, in silicon valley and area, at least.. Not my sort of thing at all - psychologically I just wouldnt' be able to cope. I'd go insane.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

When employees are properly compensated (like the example of your friend) then I somewhat understand the requirement to work your ass off. It sounds like your friend makes bookoo bucks but he has to really work for it. I'm fine with that.

What sucks is when people pulling down 50k/yr are being asked to work at nearly the same level as your Yahoo friend. That's not cool.


But I don't know how you could capture these dynamics in law in a way that is fair to everyone. And certainly current law doesn't try and capture these dynamics, it just leaves most of it up to employers.

 

[Esperr]

Did you win? Did you have to sue?

We got six of us to agree to put in for an attorney to make a case against them, there were only eight of us at the time and two were working ER on a month rotation, so they really did have to be there. The mere threat got them to back down, but the reality of it is that it was a small hospital. At a larger hospital where we would have less power overall, they would have just told us to walk.

 

[warpus]

When employees are properly compensated (like the example of your friend) then I somewhat understand the requirement to work your ass off. It sounds like your friend makes bookoo bucks but he has to really work for it. I'm fine with that.

He's fine with it too, but IMO he leads a destructive lifestyle and is being distracted by the money that's accumulating in his account.

This sort of thing should not be the norm.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Speaking of coeds, are those just girls who participate in coed sport leagues? Or is that just any girl on campus who is a student there? Because either way, now that you mention it, I should probably be hitting on more members of both groups..

In the US "coeds" are girls attending a college or university that enrolls both men and women. I think it stems from a time when most schools were sexually segregated and when one wasn't, it was "coed". The name stuck to the female portion of the student body.

 

[Birdjaguar]

So in Canada is it common to have salaried employees who also get paid an overtime premium rate?

In the US, if an employer pays someone a salary it is usually because they are classified as "exempt"* from overtime and thus not entitled (or paid) overtime wages. They work 72 hours one week and 40 the next, they get the same 2 week paycheck.

*rightly or wrongly...often wrongly

So basically.. people are being asked to work for free. That's horrible, unless I'm reading the above incorrectly.

Yup. And they complain if you didn't pull 50+ hours in a given week even if they did all their work.

It can really suck.

Being salaried is not all that bad. I get a full day's pay if I put in at least two hours of my time and can take long or short lunches and do errands during the day if I need to. I just need to get my work done. I generally put in 45+ hours "at work" each week. I am also eligible for bonuses and incentive pay. There are very few $50K salary folks putting in 50+ hour weeks unless they are on some form of commission. The attorneys, tech folks, and investment bankers who pull very long weeks are are very well paid and usually have big bonus opportunities.

My office manger position is a $14.50/hr job ($30,160 a year). I offered her $33,000 if she would work on salary. Naturally, she chose to be salaried. A salaried person is worth more to me because they are not clock watchers and I have more flexibility in how I assign them work. If she had chosen hourly, I would save money, but that wasn't my goal.

 

[warpus]

Yeah, it's not all that bad if you say it like that, but being asked to do work and then not getting paid for it at all - i.e. work outside of our regular work hours, which you do get paid for.. that doesn't sit well with me at all. It's basically an exploitation of the worker - whether he/she agrees to the contract or not and whether it is a norm in the U.S. or not.

 

[really]

Yes - my job is utterly divisible. (given sufficient basic knowledge and skills)

I am covering a maternity leave, applying US accounting rules to projects. Anyone else on my team could pick up my work in the morning and continue it.

It requires a certain amount of judgement but for the most part it could also be automated.

The team I work on is predominantly female, and two are out on maternity leave and another will be going soon. They can come back and step back into the job without much trouble. None are part-timers though.

It pays the bills.