Isabella

[Saxif]

So how good do people think she is?

I am playing a game with her ATM, i typically don't build castles in my games because I rarely tech engineering, this time I will tech it and build them and try for Notre Dam also. The bonus to siege means I will have to go warlike, the bonus trade route, seems minor tbh.

I think she gets a UU horse, knight type but can't remember. I guess her greatest strength is her ability to found a religion which I have done and getting some nice extra cash from that.

Her traits are expansionist and spiritual, I am starting to love spiritual ATM tbh, expansionist seems ok ...

Anyone else like her?

 

[lymond]

First, I'm going to assume you are playing BTS here. (Izzy's UU used to be a Knight pre-BTS though, so that threw my off a little)

Izzy is a very solid leader. Not top tier, but quite good. I'd say the main reason is a very solid trait combo combined with arguable the best UU in the game...surprise. I could take or leave the Citadel, but while it has it uses it comes with a tech I usually don't beeline and it is not synergistic with the UU. That is, siege warfare is counter-intuitive to mounted warfare. The Conquistador is a beefed up Cur which IMO is the best unit and time for warfare in the game - at least on high levels. This is why I consider the Conquistador the best UU next to the Fast Worker. You can't beat a Cur with a bonus against it's counter and defensive bonus allowed as well. Conquistadors can win you the game hands down.

The Citadel does provide a nice bonus to siege weapons. If you choose that route and play it correctly you can setup up some nice boosted Cannons later. Also, that extra trade route is not something to be overlooked. However, the problem with castles is that they generally have a short life and usually I don't build them.

Spiritual and Expansive are not top tier traits, but very good in their own right. Expansive is actually my personal favorite trait.

Her biggest weakness is questionable starting techs.

I would not even come close to saying founding a religion is her great strength. It's generally not advisable to found early religions anyway - at least on higher levels - and any FIN character with Myst start may have a better shot at an early religion.

Her greatest strength is the Conquistador.

 

[UnforcedError]

...I guess her greatest strength is her ability to found a religion...

You're not letting the default AI behaviour of Isabella influence your game, are you? Going for an early religion is very suboptimal especially with starting techs like mysticism / fishing.

As Lymond says Isabella is a mixed package.

The traits are strong if you can utilize spiritual well enough.

Spain's starting techs however are one of the worst combo in the game with mysticism being useless until you found your second city and fishing being very situational (and seafood starts tend to be slower anyway unless you can tech Bronze Working right off the bat which you can't with Spain.)

The UB's bonus experience to siege units is very valuable on paper, but it also has the shortest lifespan of all UBs (especially if you beeline for Gunpowder + MT which you should for your UU), and it's also kind of counterintuitive (you'd normally build castles in 1-2 border cities or in high pop cities for the trade route bonus (if you ever build any), but the citadel belongs into your HE city and other military bases).

Conquistadors will win you the game on most occasions so Izzy's definitely worth playing She's actually worth playing for her traits alone if you try unrestricted leaders.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Izzy is a very solid leader. Not top tier, but quite good. I'd say the main reason is a very solid trait combo combined with arguable the best UU in the game...surprise. I could take or leave the Citadel, but while it has it uses it comes with a tech I usually don't beeline and it is not synergistic with the UU

That depends. Unless you really feel a hankering for infantry, you can lead off with conq then chase them with cannons. CR III cannons. You can further delay infantry and go straight to artillery, still packing CR III. CR III arty gets winning odds against tanks in cities, so there should be some long-lasting potential there from the citadel well after the AI starts getting rifles, or even infantry. If you can end the game at cuir/cavalry (which is often) then you don't need it, but the potential value it has makes it pretty sound.

Spain in general is pretty sound. The UU is just outside the top tier cheesy guys like quecha/skirm/war chariot/immortal and the UB has potential too and can do a lot more than most UB. SPI/EXP isn't a bad trait combo at all with a nice mix of economy, early game growth, and diplo manipulation.

The only bad thing about spain is the starting techs. Everything else is "good" or better.

 

[UnforcedError]

That depends. Unless you really feel a hankering for infantry, you can lead off with conq then chase them with cannons. CR III cannons. You can further delay infantry and go straight to artillery, still packing CR III...

Isn't this a bit situational? The OP didn't say which difficulty level / map type he's playing, but let's assume we're on a crammed Pangea on a reasonably high level and we only have 4 or 5 cities. Would you still suggest to beeline Engineering and whip trebs just to let them sit idly by until they can be upgraded? (Which will presumably take quite some time, as we'd still want MT before Steel, I guess.) Some of them can be used for HR , sure. But are they worth the time and maintenance instead of going straight to MT?

 

[Um the Muse]

Isn't this a bit situational? The OP didn't say which difficulty level / map type he's playing, but let's assume we're on a crammed Pangea on a reasonably high level and we only have 4 or 5 cities. Would you still suggest to beeline Engineering and whip trebs just to let them sit idly by until they can be upgraded? (Which will presumably take quite some time, as we'd still want MT before Steel, I guess.) Some of them can be used for HR , sure. But are they worth the time and maintenance instead of going straight to MT?

Who said anything about sitting on a bunch of trebs? Long before you get MT, the AI is almost guaranteed to have engineering. It's a high priority for them. Steal/ Trade for it. Get some stone, and you'll be set long before you can build Conq's.

Alternatively, Spanish trebs are pretty decent on their own. You could decide to just use those...

 

[UnforcedError]

Who said anything about sitting on a bunch of trebs? Long before you get MT, the AI is almost guaranteed to have engineering. It's a high priority for them. Steal/ Trade for it. Get some stone, and you'll be set long before you can build Conq's.

Alternatively, Spanish trebs are pretty decent on their own. You could decide to just use those...

You must have misunderstood my post completely, which addressed the general usefulness of the Spanish UB. You have to sit on your citadel-powered trebs if you want them to become CRIII Cannons later, as TMIT suggested. As soon as you're ready to build Conquistadors your citadel is obsolete, so you can't count on them powering up your siege anymore.

EDIT: I only play on Immortal, but If I really want to beeline (lib) MT I can sometimes get it before the AI is willing to trade Engineering for a reasonable price (given the fact that I usually don't trade away Philosophy or Education before Lib) (unless Mansa, Freddy or some other tech-broker is present, but I prefer playing with random AI).

 

[MilesBeyond]

You must have misunderstood my post completely. You have to sit on your citadel-powered trebs if you want them to become CRIII Cannons later, as TMIT suggested. As soon as you're ready to build Conquistadors your citadel is obsolete, so you can't count on them powering up your siege anymore.

I think you misunderstood his post, heh. He was basically saying that you don't have to sit on your citadel-powered trebs because CR III trebs are still quite good at that point in the game.

 

[Saxif]

Well I am playing Monarch on a large continents map. I am on an continent with Monty, Cyrus and hannibal. I went for horsemen quick and attack hannibal as he was getting out of hand, razed 2 cities and captured a 3rd. Then Monty attacked me but kept bouncing off my walls, then he bribed Hannibal to attack again, made peace with Monty and took another city from Hannibal.

Now MOnty is at war with Cyrus and I am gonna attack Monty in the rear to hurt him, hate that nut bag! Then it'll be Hannibal and I'll take Cyrus with Conquistidors!

As easy as that! However all that warring, and trying to keep my military up and researching Engineering has put my Lib time centuries back Reckon it might be 1300 - 1400 before I get it ...

 

[UnforcedError]

I think you misunderstood his post, heh. He was basically saying that you don't have to sit on your citadel-powered trebs because CR III trebs are still quite good at that point in the game.

Well, since he reacted to my original post which assumed teching with 4-5 cities for (lib) MT on a high difficulty level I'd say it's a tremendously bad idea to go to war before you have Conqs if you can help it. So your trebs would sit idly by until you have Steel.

Well I am playing Monarch on a large continents map. I am on an continent with Monty, Cyrus and hannibal. I went for horsemen quick and attack hannibal as he was getting out of hand, razed 2 cities and captured a 3rd. Then Monty attacked me but kept bouncing off my walls, then he bribed Hannibal to attack again, made peace with Monty and took another city from Hannibal.

Now MOnty is at war with Cyrus and I am gonna attack Monty in the rear to hurt him, hate that nut bag! Then it'll be Hannibal and I'll take Cyrus with Conquistidors!

As easy as that! However all that warring, and trying to keep my military up and researching Engineering has put my Lib time centuries back Reckon it might be 1300 - 1400 before I get it ...

I guess 1300 - 1400 is still doable on Monarch. Why didn't you try to vassal Hannibal?

 

[plasmacannon]

Thanks, Saxif for letting us know the game level with which you play on. This was going to be my question.
Playing on Monarch, which is my level too, is different than Diety.

Let's talk about the starting techs. Assuming we are not using 'Unrestricted Leaders', Fishing and Mysticism are the two best starting techs for going for an early religion and Spain is the only one to get them.
You get 2 gold per water tile, during a time when almost everyone else will be only getting one. A Financial leader will have to have a resourse like Dye, Gold, Gems and such to have a total of 3 Gold per turn. They would also have to start with Mysticism. This could only be Maya, Inca or Korea and none of them start with Fishing. Which is why usually as an AI, Spain does tend to get a religion.
If you want it, you can go for it. Whether you want it, is up to you. I have heard some good arguments for not getting an early religion recently, especially all of them. Having AIs that start religous wars against each other instead of you, gives you time to build up.

With seafood resourses, you can tech mining and BW chop out workers and workboats to pop up quickly. Slaving out buildings and settlers too, or you could chop out Stonehenge fairly quickly too.

Economics obsoletes Castle.
Economics is Not required to get Steel.
So Citadel Cannons can be built from your Barracks cities starting with 8xp.
12xp if you are running Vassalage and Theocracy. +2 more in cities with a Great General in them. So, you can see that City Raider3 Cannons are quite possible and very good.
Walls and Citadels take a while to build, since Isabella is not a PRO leader. So securing a Stone resourse through colonization or conquering is very important if this route is going to be pursued.

If No Stone is nearby, the Conquistador attacks mentioned by others already can be pursued, once a horse resourse is hooked up. Chariot rushes and early HA attacks will give you good units to upgrade from.

Just to note, if you try 'Unrestricted Leaders' and select Churchill of Spain, you will see some sickeningly powerful Cannons. City3/Bombard3 Cannons don't take long to get and conquering cities takes little time from there.

 

[Riflin'Joe]

With cheap harbours, some incentive to build citadels and starting with fishing makes Isabella pretty good for a Great Lighthouse based game when the map is right, especially as you won't be in any hurry for economics and corporation.

With conqs, I like the fact that there's also less need for early Rifling, so you can pursue the Sci Meth - physics line earlier.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Isn't this a bit situational? The OP didn't say which difficulty level / map type he's playing, but let's assume we're on a crammed Pangea on a reasonably high level and we only have 4 or 5 cities. Would you still suggest to beeline Engineering and whip trebs just to let them sit idly by until they can be upgraded? (Which will presumably take quite some time, as we'd still want MT before Steel, I guess.) Some of them can be used for HR , sure. But are they worth the time and maintenance instead of going straight to MT?

What's wrong with killing people with conqs first (if you get everyone this way, then great), then following up with cavalry/cr III cannon (or cr III arty?) against people who make it to rifles/infantry?

The only tech you have to avoid is econ ----> corp ---- assembly line. Having castles can help mitigate the loss of corporation tech trade route to a degree; you won't lose out much at all if using state property or merc (usually SP, though if you have vassals you still get trade routes to them in merc and it's actually pretty good) then.

I don't know about this "sit on treb" nonsense, make conqs at that point. Just BUILD the CR III cannons or arty later .

CR III arty is end-game powerful. Only the truly future era stuff (mechinf, modern armor) defends reasonably vs it. However with CR III even mechinf doesn't get amazing odds vs arty and after a few rounds of collateral you have winning odds there too! Even if they get gunships, you're 1 tech from SAM infantry (with its 100% bonus vs gunships) to prevent them from attacking your stack + flanking the arty, and the gunships themselves are utterly miserable at defending CR III arty. SAM that take interception promos get a 70% intercept rate too making AI bombardment of your stack with air power pretty ineffective if you have any kind of medic support at all.

Fishing and Mysticism are the two best starting techs for going for an early religion and Spain is the only one to get them.

It's a shame then that this is a consistently awful idea.

 

[Um the Muse]

Who said anything about sitting on a bunch of trebs? Long before you get MT, the AI is almost guaranteed to have engineering. It's a high priority for them. Steal/ Trade for it. Get some stone, and you'll be set long before you can build Conq's.

Alternatively, Spanish trebs are pretty decent on their own. You could decide to just use those...

You must have misunderstood my post completely, which addressed the general usefulness of the Spanish UB. You have to sit on your citadel-powered trebs if you want them to become CRIII Cannons later, as TMIT suggested. As soon as you're ready to build Conquistadors your citadel is obsolete, so you can't count on them powering up your siege anymore.

EDIT: I only play on Immortal, but If I really want to beeline (lib) MT I can sometimes get it before the AI is willing to trade Engineering for a reasonable price (given the fact that I usually don't trade away Philosophy or Education before Lib) (unless Mansa, Freddy or some other tech-broker is present, but I prefer playing with random AI).

Reading over my post, I can see that I wasn't very clear. TMIT has already made the points that I was trying to make here that you don't have to sit on trebs.

If you decide to build them, they are reasonably powerful. If you don't, you can save on the maintenance or, more likely, take the time that you save in order to build catapults and defensive troops. With a four city empire, I personally would feel much less comfortable about building trebs in the first place.

If you can research MT before the average AI gets Engineering on IMM, then you research much faster than I do. You're likely a stronger player, too.

 

[bhavv]

It's a shame then that this is a consistently awful idea.

On Diety yes. On Monarch no.

Culture wins via multiple religion founding are ridiculously simple to achieve on Monarch difficulty. Izzy makes a great choice of leader if you want to attempt that.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The real question is "is that first religion actually speeding up the culture win on monarch, or are you just getting away with doing it because it's monarch"?

Usually, the latter is reality. In culture games you want to get those cities up early and working cottages so that when you have the multipliers you have something to multiply. You can often get those early religions from AI. Hampering production and tech by a significant for a religion that is of marginal benefit for most of the early game (and when pursuing a victory condition where going for a shrine is actually a bad idea) does not speed up culture wins on monarch. It slows them down. Yes, it's "only monarch" and you can still win long before the AI sniffs near victory. But you could have won faster.

 

[MilesBeyond]

The real question is "is that first religion actually speeding up the culture win on monarch, or are you just getting away with doing it because it's monarch"?

Usually, the latter is reality. In culture games you want to get those cities up early and working cottages so that when you have the multipliers you have something to multiply. You can often get those early religions from AI. Hampering production and tech by a significant for a religion that is of marginal benefit for most of the early game (and when pursuing a victory condition where going for a shrine is actually a bad idea) does not speed up culture wins on monarch. It slows them down. Yes, it's "only monarch" and you can still win long before the AI sniffs near victory. But you could have won faster.

Depends on the map, doesn't it? I'd say that in an isolated start, founding an early religion is a viable option since you can't reliably wait for anything to spread to you. The goal of which is being able to have enough temples up in time to crank out the cathedrals as soon as Music hits. The more religions you can found, the more options you'll have.

 

[UnforcedError]

...
The only tech you have to avoid is econ ----> corp ---- assembly line. Having castles can help mitigate the loss of corporation tech trade route to a degree; you won't lose out much at all if using state property or merc (usually SP, though if you have vassals you still get trade routes to them in merc and it's actually pretty good) then.

Reading over my post, I can see that I wasn't very clear. TMIT has already made the points that I was trying to make here that you don't have to sit on trebs.

Right, I see your point. My post wasn't quite clear about this either. I usually trade for Eco it it's already available before declaring. Never tried to do it in Merc and usually can't reach SP before the attack.

If you can research MT before the average AI gets Engineering on IMM, then you research much faster than I do. You're likely a stronger player, too.

I wish I didn't actually say getting to MT before the AI techs Engineering, I rather tried to imply that I have other trading priorities (Monarchy, Feudalism, CS etc etc) because I'd research the Music-line and generate GSs for the bulbs. By the time the AI gets Engineering some of them might have reached their trade caps and other trades would be too steep, so I'd very often backfill it with Edu, Phil or Lib after getting MT.

Depends on the map, doesn't it? I'd say that in an isolated start, founding an early religion is a viable option since you can't reliably wait for anything to spread to you. The goal of which is being able to have enough temples up in time to crank out the cathedrals as soon as Music hits. The more religions you can found, the more options you'll have.

With an isolated start you can still oracle CoL, tech (bulb?) Phil, tech (bulb?) Theo early enough on Monarch. The fact that you can get away with teching Meditation / Poly first on Monarch doesn't necessarily make it a good strategy.

EDIT: why would you want to go for culture in isolation?

EDIT2: It just occured to me that you were probably referring to TMIT's HoF game with Isabella. That was a very specific strategy for very special conditions (everyone in isolation except for two AIs, always war, goal: cultural victory). In that case the AI is slow to develop so you can afford a slow start as well. (It will still set you back, but the risk might be worth taking.)

 

[bhavv]

With an isolated start you can still oracle CoL, tech (bulb?) Phil, tech (bulb?) Theo early enough on Monarch. The fact that you can get away with teching Meditation / Poly first on Monarch doesn't necessarily make it a good strategy.

EDIT: why would you want to go for culture in isolation?

A good strategy is anything that can win the game. There is therefore nothing 'bad' about founding early religions.

I would want to found as many religions as I can and get a culture win on an Isolated start because it is far more optimal than post Astronomy conquest. Having to spend every turn micromanaging and moving 100 tanks around the map is not my idea of fun or enjoyable, building up my cities peacefully and winning by Culture or Space Race has always been my prefered strategy.

I dont see any valid reason why I should not found early religions for my cultural / non conquest playstyle. It works for me very reliably, and it is a very powerful tactic.

A slow start is not a negative when you are not attempting to win by science or conquest. An early religion start makes a far faster start for a cultural win, and also for a builder game as it allows you to get Organised Religion running very quickly.

 

[UnforcedError]

I would want to found as many religions as I can and get a culture win on an Isolated start because it is far more optimal than post Astronomy conquest. Having to spend every turn micromanaging and moving 100 tanks around the map is not my idea of fun or enjoyable, building up my cities peacefully and winning by Culture or Space Race has always been my prefered strategy.

Founding too many religions is usually not a good idea IMO as you would deny them to the AI (very bad for diplo). I guess if I wanted to win peacefully in isolation I'd go space and would not care about religions too much, I'd rather try to get Astro first. Isolation is generally not a good setting for a cultural win (TMIT's previously mentioned game is different as the culture victory and always war conditions were preset.)