Isolated Immortal Game

[InovA]

I've been playing a game that seems like a great learning game for the Immortal level. I picked Fractal/Random Climate/Standard Size/NHNE/Aggressive AI/6 AI with a random leader and rolled Montezuma (AGG, SPI).

After a few dozen turns I noticed I'm isolated on a decent sized continent in an Arid climate. The Aggressive trait is little use out here with the barbs. The Spiritual trait is a difficult one to take advantage of and one that I typically ignore, staying on slavery for a long, long time.

Having traits I can't abuse for the start of the game and being isolated on a continent with more difficult to take city locations and needing to properly divvy up food between them makes for a unique learning game with little to abuse, forcing me to rely on my core mechanics. I'd like any input from the rest of you!

The start:

T0: Seems like a pretty clear choice to settle 1E on the plains hills. 1W and 2N1W are worth considering, but I'm ultimately happy with my location.

I've already completed the 1st turn set (next post) but will leave this here unspoiled in case others wish to play from the start.

 

[InovA]

Spoiler Up to 1040 BC :

Tech: Agg - AH - Mining - BW - Archery - Wheel - Pottery - Writing

City's Settled: T1, T37, T47, T64. (3960 BC, 2520 BC, 2120 BC, 1440 BC)

Spoiler Turn 26 :

T26: I've made 3 warriors and lost my scout to barbs. I've been applying extra worker turns towards a plains river farm while waiting for Mining to finish. This is also the moment I realized I'm isolated, with maybe a chance for a boat to go to another continent on a peninsula tip over westward, but I'm not counting on it.

Spoiler Turn 45 :

T45: The 2nd city location seemed obvious. Flood plains + the ability to share the wheat and/or pigs with the capital allows for rapid growth while the capital works the mines to produce more Settlers and Workers. I lost 2 warriors to barbs further influencing my need for Archery after spotting no horses or copper on my continent. 3rd city location was either between the pigs NE or the wheat SW, but grass pigs give +6 and this city can share cottages on the flood plains. The SW wheat is only +4/+1, so it's a pretty clear 3rd city location.

Spoiler Turn 74 :

T74: The 4th city could've also been the pigs + clam spot just east of the wheat + marble location, but the wheat + marble spot is A) good enough, B) able to share a +4 mine and a grass cottage with the capital, and C) 2 distance shorter in distance maintenance cost.

I have 3 Archers out spawn busting, with a 4th en route. Barbs shouldn't be as much of an issue. If axes start roaming I can whip a few more archers in time.

Maybe my 4th city should've been/5th city could be one which works the silver to the north, connecting it to the empire. This seems sub optimal though.

My main issue here is deciding on my next tech! (Just finished Writing.)

Alphabet will allow Research building and costs 405.
Math + Currency allows Wealth building and gives an additional trade route to cities (+1 per city atm) and costs 878.
Fishing may be squeezed in for the Pigs + Clams city, costing 65.
Masonry will give me the Marble resource, as an improved tile and as a bonus towards wonder building/fail gold, costing 92.

Masonry would be a reason to also go for Aesthetics + Literature for the Great Library and eventual National Epic, but this costs an additional 674.
768 spent for the Great Library - which I might not even gain - seems like a large cost, especially after the tiles I've scouted and being in the arid climate meaning I likely won't have a good GP farm to take advantage of National Epic really well. The fail gold from this line is the best benefit.

Meditation + Priesthood + Monarchy allows Hereditary rule for plenty of +, costing 593.
Meditation + Priesthood + Code of Laws could introduce Confucianism so that I have a religion, allow Caste System switches so I can abuse cities at high and towards and instead of flopping around, with nothing good to whip. It also allows me to go towards Civil Service (928 after Math). This CoL line costs 593. It also unlocks the UU sacrificial altar. Monarchy/CoL could be teched after whichever isn't for 405.

Ultimately, I want to grab Optics so I can meet other civs. This line requires Fishing + Sailing + Metal Casting + Iron Working + Compass + Machinery + Optics, a total of 3098.

My thought is to go for Fishing, then the Med + PH + Monarchy route, Hereditary rule will help solve the crisis, albeit at the extra cost of +1/t per from the unit support cost. Also is a slight backup against barb axes/spears. After Monarchy, I think I'd want Math + Currency for Wealth building along with the +1. Alphabet seems like a better choice in the short run, but since I have a 3100 mountain ahead of me, the +25% from Libraries leads to a higher :1.25 with : ratio than : with :. This should save roughly 620 and give +1/city from the trade route, more than making up for the 473 additional cost over Alphabet. From here I'd plan to go straight for Optics. (Fishing + MC + Sailing + IW + Machinery + Compass + Optics)

Maybe going (Fishing), Monarchy, then Math + Currency, then CoL (reducing the cost by 68 due to another prerequisite tech), then Civil Service, then Optics route is better though. Bureaucracy will be a ton of help and this detour costs 860 more. If roughly half of my tech is coming from my capital after the 1st academy and a good number of cottage++, the 3100 mountain is ~1500 teched by the capital, meaning the +50% boost (and +50% : Wealth building) is so helpful that the detour practically pays for itself by the time I hit Optics.

Another question here is where should my 5th city be? Pigs + Clams next to my 4th city, or Crab + Silver to the north for the + Silver. I think it should be Pigs + Clams, with 6th at the Crab + Silver, remaining coastal but rushing monument while a work boat from the 3rd or 4th city grabs the clams.The more I think about it though, the more I like reversing the order.

What do you guys think? Are there any mistakes in my planning early on, and what tech path looks best? Thanks!

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

I think the early goal is pretty much to get monarchy as that civic make such as huge difference because being able to grow your cities is really important. Here I see marble so why not go oracle into monarchy? You are isolated so you have to research techs because of their value not because of their trade value like you can do in normal games.

After that next big milestone is probably civil service which not only give bureaucracy but also is important for liberalism race. Im not sure when you should get optics. Yes you need to find your neighbours and open up tech trade but on the other hand getting civil service first may be a better idea.

 

[Fippy]

Too many archers for my liking, immortal barbs are not harmless but i would try making use of aggressive instead (cover warriors via barracks)
Keeping unit cost low is important as well, you currently pay 3g / turn for them.
If using archers, try keeping them at a minimum needed.

Not a fan of so many workers too, but i might get disagreed on that.. (notorious for my low worker numbers ~~).
They are expensive early, and when you build a ph mine with 2 of them you know you did not need so many. Especially not with compact city settling.

Making good use of specials is important in Iso, marble is very tempting (stone would be better, Pyras are #1 when isolated).
Pottery was fine, but writing before masonry & Oracle line..hmm i would not.
While libraries are good, getting Code of Laws via Oracle would be huge with SPI.
(temples + reli gives 2 much needed happy, and cheaper than monarchy)

 

[InovA]

@Denkt Definitely not going Oracle at this point. There's virtually 0% chance of being able to finish it before someone else, seeing how it's already 1040 BC. I'm surprised it hasn't already been finished. And I am researching based on their value, Alphabet is considered for the Research building and low cost, not for trading. Though Optics is meant to help me get to eventual trading.

@Fippy I would've liked to go for Oracle, but my reasoning was that after BW I needed Archery, and with that slowing me down and with this sub par start I felt like I had a solid chance of being too late on the Oracle (by the looks of it I probably could've gotten it). This may not be a Deity game, but I want to treat it as one to better prepare me for Deity, so I think I would've missed the Oracle on Deity or had a low enough chance that it wouldn't be worth the risk. And SPI Temples + religion is a very good point and makes me want to rush for CoL route, ignoring Monarchy for at least a while. Maybe picking it up after Civil Service or Metal Casting.

Your idea of Aggressive Cover Warriors is a great idea, I should give that a try sometime! Might have tipped my idea of skipping Oracle around. And I don't like my unit numbers either, which is why I'm building all other random buildings I can to keep unit cost low, and was an extra reason to go for Writing ASAP, so my hammers are going towards good buildings. Maybe archers would still need to be added at some point later though, to deal with axe barbs, unless I feel I could spawn bust most of the continent with 5-6 cities and 5 warriors. Maybe it's worth it to delete a warrior in my capital for 1/t and send an archer back there (wouldn't experience due to the loss until 4 pop, which the archer would arrive in time for).

 

[Fippy]

I like your thinking to get prepared for deity
But in this case, Oracle = free try, and not harmful if you lose it.
Priesthood is needed anyways, for either CoL or Monarchy. Well CoL could also be reached via currency, but that's very slow.

So even on t70 now, i would still go for priesthood.
Doing so earlier would give you more stuff to build, from masonry (Pyras) and Poly (ToA).
Both for failgold ofc, but as you wrote..need something to build early.

 

[Lain]

I like your ambition to play this out and improve your gameplay. Did you check the isolation workshop thread? Many great contributions and save games there. Anyway, sharing some thoughts in no particular order:

- I wouldn't tech AH here, especially with the slow starting techs. Agriculture->Mining for me, regardless of isolation or not. By the time Mining is finished, I think that assuming isolation would become sensible. In my experience (20+ deity isolation games played in the recent months) Pottery before Bronze Working is often the better choice. Even if you can chop and whip, what are you going to use those hammers for? There is no rush to expand (especially without Pottery). So my tech path here would look like this:

Agriculture -> Mining -> Archery -> Wheel -> Pottery ... then it becomes trickier. Marble can be used, but not critical for winning. AH and BW before Pottery definitely seems too slow though.

- Your 2nd city could have gone 1W to suffer 1,6 (=1) instead of 2. Usually it does matter in isolation, you should be fine on this occasion though. Desert hill and immediately cottaging those floodplains is probably the way to go for short-term benefit

- Tech-wise, there are many distractions for my taste. Civil Service shouldn't even be considered. Often it's best to go straight for Optics after Monarchy. But here, I would consider Masonry/Polytheism/Priesthood next and then Aesthetics-Literature to use the marble for failgold. Maybe Monarchy before that. Not a fan of CoL here. Seems like a beaker-graveyard.

After Literature, probably add Alpha to build research and Maths for better chops, in addition to bulbing Optics. Academies are often not worth it, though if you secure Great Library+NE there might be "too many" GS and they have to be used for something I suppose... Maybe self-tech Calendar and bulb Machinery aswell, would be a good deal beaker-wise. Definitely ignore Currency.

- 4th city is not really doing anything. A big drain on the economy and not much to show for it. Cd6 or Cd8 (FP+wheat in 2nd ring) would be better. Basically you just cherrypick the best city locations and ignore the other ones for a long time. The ones with Fish in 2nd ring should be ignored until you are about to reach Optics. Until then, stay at 5-6 cities. Crab+Silver can be justified because it secures useful resources. Not clear cut though. I would probably ignore it aswell actually. Not like there are too many great tiles you get access to with the extra happiness from the silver.

- Way, waaay too many units. 2 workers would be more than enough. If there is time to build plains farms and plains mines, they are really not being useful. I think you get 5 units "for free", every additional one costs 1 gold/turn. When you reach 5 pop (across your empire), you save maintenance on a 6th one. A 7th one at 9 pop I think. Definitely keep that in mind and ideally, don't pay any maintenance for units.

- Good to see isolation games, so keep it up and good luck

 

[lymond]

Yeah, you really have to watch out on the units, especially workers. Probably the key thing in iso besides the obvious not being able to trade techs, is the lack of foreign trade routes, which really hurts the economy big time. i'd say spawn busters are more important that workers in iso.

You might have to tech Archery in iso, but first see if you can spawnbust 100%..I've been able to do that in quite a few iso games.

 

[Lain]

So I played a bit... to T50. Popped gems in capital this turn, need someone to remove it via WB before I can continue ... not sure how to do it and don't want to see (even more) of the map.

Spoiler :

Tech-path as stated above. After Pottery I went for Masonry and now working on Poly -> Priesthood. Yup, skipping AH and BW entirely for a long time. My cities have stuff to build, I couldn't really use more production or food for that matter. Horses? I always assume that I have no strategic ressources anyway. Life taught me that.



Gem pop, gg...

Saves attached if you want to compare.

 

[lymond]

Looking a gift horse in the mouth there, Lain

You can do what I do when I add barb techs to NC WB games. Lower Field of View all the way and then go into WB. (keep your eye away from the mini map or keep one hand over it). I think it is the map mode button (upper right buttons > lower row > just left of default player mode button ) that allows you to remove/add resources. Choose the resource tab > select gems > > click on the tile> *poof*

 

[Fippy]

removed

 

[lymond]

oh..well that'll work too

 

[Lain]

Thanks a lot Fippy

 

[Lain]

1040 BC

Spoiler :

Oracle built before I could put anything into it, but I will get ~400 gold from Temple of Artemis soon. Working 8 cottages already. A few villages soon. BW-Writing just in, 3 Granaries up and running. AH now to get up the pigs while teching to Monarchy. Aesthetics after that. Great Library is not very important, but would be nice. More important: Major failgold from Parthenon, maybe a few chops into National Epic aswell.

4 cities settled. Shame about delaying that clam-pig-spot, but it would just drag me down for now. I have no good way of using all that food. Be a different story if it was on a river. It will grow and catch up quick enough later. Commerce-wise it's kind of irrelevant anyway.



Paying 0 gold.. but why -1 handicap cost, never seen that before. Immortal thing?



No extensive scouting since I have what I need to reach Astronomy. Prefer to stay compact and avoid paying maintenance. Instead of sending out units to look for a double-pig-gold-floodplains spot, which probably doesn't exist. Especially on arid climate. And anything below that is not really worth getting with distance+city count maintenance factored in.

Don't think I would go CoL here. Religion... I don't know. Rather make contact sooner I guess.

And on further reflection I think this settling plan is better?

Spoiler :

Double seafood a bit later. But otherwise no good way to use the wheat. Can also ignore Fishing etc for a while this way.

 

[InovA]

@Lain I really like your idea early on of rushing to pottery and delaying AH and BW, which seem like obvious choices. After I finish this game I'll give it a try like that, think you're definitely ahead because of it, though I didn't know I was isolated until Mining was nearly finished. I felt like AH was a good option if things looked more standard, but skipping BW to get cottages up ASAP is smart. Also your 4th city for the FP cottages seems a bit nicer than my wheat + production city, especially since I have so little to build, though it does have double the distance maintenance cost. But that shouldn't be considered compared to how much more quickly it will have towns.

I really want to disagree with you on the CoL -> Civil Service route though. As I stated, with Bureaucracy and an Academy, the detour can nearly pay for itself by the time Optics' 3100 route would be finished. Though the Academy would happen anyways, so it shouldn't really be considered as a part of the calculation. As I look at it, the capital should have nearly 32 at that time, so 48 vs 32. 32:56 vs 46:84. 28/t. Not as impressive as I thought. Math (337) and Currency (541) seem like good choices either way, so I can Wealth build and have +1. CoL (473) and Civil Service (928) are a 1401 detour. How long would it take to grab Optics... I estimate another 50 from my other cities, so 134. 23 turns * 28/t is worth 644. Let's add in the +50% bonus for Wealth building (maybe 10 to 15) so +5:+5 which essentially goes +5:+5:+7/t (average). 35/t * 23 turns = 805. So the entire detour would cost roughly 600 in opportunity cost and could delay meeting other civs by maybe 10 turns. Foreign trade routes can't be introduced until Astronomy (unless that unscouted tip leads to another continent). Teach trading could begin and I'd get to trade Compass immediately and Optics soon after for good techs, but it's unlikely they'd tech Compass in that time anyways, so this is always available. Machinery might be teched by some in that time. There aren't great techs I'd be trading these for (Calendar, Construction, Theology, Feudalism, Engineering, Aesthetics, Literature, Masonry, Code of Laws, Civil Service, Poly, Mono are expected), so it's mainly about the -value from the techs above anything else, unless I haven't gone for CoL or Civil Service yet. Maybe they'd have Paper, HBR, or Guilds, too. I just can't help but feel like increasing my own tech by +800 is worth more than trading with them because I'd likely have a fixed amount of to gain in trades, regardless of which route I take.

I think I'll try the Civil Service route, then after meeting + tech trading a lot I'll go back and try again with the faster Optics route.

Thanks to all for your input!!

Paying 0 gold.. but why -1 handicap cost, never seen that before. Immortal thing?

Unit Cost = Total Unit number - (FLOOR[0.24N] + D)
Final Unit Cost = Unit Cost - CEILING[h]
N = pop size, so yes you have 1 more free unit at 5, 9, 13, 17, 21, 25, 28 total pop. D = 5 on Deity, 6 on Immortal. h = Unit Cost*0.0 on Deity, Unit Cost*0.1 on Immortal. So basically 1 additional free unit when cost = 1 through 10, 2 free for 11 through 20, etc.

 

[Lain]

Civil Service ruins the Astronomy bulb by opening up Paper (+Education... + Printing Press), which is the main reason why it can never be worth it. Otherwise it could make sense, yes. The advantage from having 500 AD or so Astronomy can't be quantified in just beakers (though the commerce gained from trade routes probably equal Bureaucracy). Main point are the strategic advantages (gained by earlier Optics). Tech trading and getting control of the diplomacy. Bribe people off each other if there could be a runaway and such.

Also resource trades are a big boon. Selling resources can net about 40 gold/turn instantly... on Deity at least.

 

[InovA]

@Lain Ahhhh the bulbing path. That changes things a lot! Ok, ok, skip Civil Service it is then. CoL won't be worth it if I'm skipping Civil Service. Astronomy was what I was looking at after Optics, wasn't sure if I'd want to try to shoot for Liberalism on it or not, but the resource selling is a very good point. 0% after Optics until I trade for Calendar and can start on Astro makes sense, right?

Also would you have gone for or skipped AH at the start if you didn't know it was isolated? I thought 2 +5 tiles for 2 cities sharing was an obvious choice, but because of flood plains I can see faster cottages still being a very strong option. Maybe I focus on REX too much.

 

[Lain]

Yes, 0% slider after Optics, send out caravels immediately, trade for Calendar and (ideally) double-bulb Astronomy.

I am not a fan of going for Lib in isolation. Main reason is that you have no idea about the tech pace. It might go really early. And if you lose Lib, going Paper and Education will seem like a big waste of beakers. Bulbing Astronomy is a very reliable approach though.

CoL is not that clearcut. I might still go for it, but it's important to skip Meditation then (or otherwise you open up Philo bulb). Can help getting the Great Scientists earlier, but securing Great Library+National Epic might solve that problem. But if you have to choose between Currency and Code of Laws, I would definitely pick CoL. You can run merchants aswell, there is enough food. Get easy border pops for seafood in 2nd ring. And speed up the Great Scientists if needed. Failgold can pay for your research here and building Research becomes a good alternative then. If you have 800 gold in the bank, you'd rather build Research and get your critical techs a bit quicker, right? Even if building Wealth is more "efficient".

Yes, I would have skipped AH either way, especially if there is no contact on ~T15 yet. It's a lot of food that can be turned into tons of production, but it's not easy to use that production in a good way. With close neighbors, I wouldn't delay BW for so long though.

Land grabbing is not so important here. 4-5 cities are more than enough to reach Optics. Often I settle a wave of 2-3 cities once Optics is in sight. Turn down slider, make contact, trade Optics for Calendar/Currency etc, bulb Astronomy. And that should leave enough time to get the remaining cities up in time for an attack. It's a very different playstyle compared to non-isolation. Basically a different game.

 

[InovA]

Spoiler Turn 94 (525 BC): :

Well would ya look at that. Once he border pops we can tech trade (assuming they have Alpha)! Still no resource or trade routes, but this is nice! If he doesn't border pop for a long time, a work boat with Optics' +1 sight will immediately meet him.

EDIT: You can't see too well from the picture, but that's a level 2 or 3 border pop, there's a corner visible 3W of the archer. I also immediately deleted 2 Workers and 1 Warrior at the start of this turnset, saving +3/t. In my next post I'll have more detailed info on this turnset, just wanted to post that SS.

@Lain I've already gone Med for the fast Monarchy, though I do see merit to the Masonry + Poly+ Mono route, allowing fail gold in ToA. It'd have to be enough to add up to the extra cost though. And I did think about how building Research can be > Wealth when you have plenty of to spare, but with so little fail gold ongoing and since every city has a Library I really do want to go Currency. I'm have to stop here for the day and will think things over while I'm gone. And why did you have to bring up Glib?! Now I'm gonna have to consider that some more, too. Marble bonus, plus a few forests still around my capital, could be real nice, especially with National Epic fail gold going around my other cities. Hmmmm... If I know I can get Glib, I'm certain it's worth it. And what's a game without a little risk?

 

[Lain]

The Parthenon is also good for some failgold (another + from going Polytheism). I'll probably get about 600 or so from that. And yeah, National Epic. You mentioned the libraries you built, so you could put a chop or two into that everywhere.

I haven't played that far, but I might even go Music here for a golden age. That's a tricky one and I don't like delaying Optics at all, but... I'll post a shadow and see what can be done there.