Isolation problems, Elizabeth, Fractal, Monarch, Epic.

[i_imperator]

@ learner gamer: Thanks for the comments and consideration for my thread! When i settled on the plains cows i was thinking about the corn in the bfc. However i found that i had to settle another city just to get the copper, which wasn't going to be a good one. On my seccond reload i moved 1W to grab the copper in my bfc so i wouldn't have to wait another 40 turns for my boarders to pop and to get it then. It was too late for the rush if i did that. Thats whey i moved IW.
@ Vranasm: I played a little bit from your save and i think you were right about Ragnar and the whole vassal thing. Agustus was asking me to cancel my deals with ragnar.I didn't want to piss him off so i agreed and ragnar became furious with me. Roosevelt was plotting war for about 20 turns. I focused Espionage (when i got a GS) on him and found that he didn't have enough navy to make a focused attack on me. He later went out of WHEOOHRN mode and of course, just when i was finished assembling my navy, with redcoats, cannons, and galleons, he somehow got assembly line for infantry. Its a good thing i didn't attack.

 

[learner gamer]

Update to 950AD:

Spoiler :

Very much about recovering the economy after the GK rush and filling out the land. In retrospect, I probably Rexxed too fast in the immediate aftermath of killing GK – should probably have adhered to your advice vranasm and generated a great scientist before filling out the continent. Oh well, live and learn I guess. By the way, please feel free to critique the save (in spoilers to avoid derailing Stevoh’s thread) – it’s these very kind of food poor / no obvious GP farm maps that I struggle most with.

FWIW, the tech path in the post GK era went towards literature and I’m now teching towards optics since my civ is starting to need more and resources to grow. I did make a run at the GLH but missed it...the failure cash however was really helpful in getting to literature. After optics, it’s likely civil service will follow, now that the capital’s just been moved to Karakorum. I’m also just keeping half an eye on an astro bulb so am thinking about changing civics to max GS generation. Talking of Karakorum BTW, I’ve recently used a GS (which followed an unexpected GP) to bulb philo and found a late-ishTaoism ...and the GP enabled me to build a shrine there.

In other news, the other AI seem to have been engaged in more or less constant warfare judging by the number of great generals I’ve been notified about. It will be interesting to see if that’s left a really dominant AI to deal with. Who knows, maybe we’ll see a bunch of redcoats later on...

Talking of the future, I’ve also stopped to consider whether it’s worthwhile building Sistine at this point – purely to deny it to the AI. My inclination is to avoid it and invest the hammers in a harbour and forge. However, wonder hogging is just so attractive. Must. Keep. Focussed.

If you have any (spoilered) tips, I’d love to know them.

 

[Gumbolt]

Here's another save,

Spoiler :

Gumbolt, your going to be very happy to know that york is a great commerce city at size 17, and i somehow managed to get the great library and lib.I having trouble with happiness and health but i've just started a few trades with the AI to improve it

Well it is a marked improvement. You are struggling for happiness. I love fact your is size 17. You do need a few more units or happiness resources. That army is killing your science.

I think you probably took lib too soon.

Better but not perfect.

 

[Gumbolt]

Update to 950AD:

Spoiler :

Very much about recovering the economy after the GK rush and filling out the land. In retrospect, I probably Rexxed too fast in the immediate aftermath of killing GK – should probably have adhered to your advice vranasm and generated a great scientist before filling out the continent. Oh well, live and learn I guess. By the way, please feel free to critique the save (in spoilers to avoid derailing Stevoh’s thread) – it’s these very kind of food poor / no obvious GP farm maps that I struggle most with.

FWIW, the tech path in the post GK era went towards literature and I’m now teching towards optics since my civ is starting to need more and resources to grow. I did make a run at the GLH but missed it...the failure cash however was really helpful in getting to literature. After optics, it’s likely civil service will follow, now that the capital’s just been moved to Karakorum. I’m also just keeping half an eye on an astro bulb so am thinking about changing civics to max GS generation. Talking of Karakorum BTW, I’ve recently used a GS (which followed an unexpected GP) to bulb philo and found a late-ishTaoism ...and the GP enabled me to build a shrine there.

In other news, the other AI seem to have been engaged in more or less constant warfare judging by the number of great generals I’ve been notified about. It will be interesting to see if that’s left a really dominant AI to deal with. Who knows, maybe we’ll see a bunch of redcoats later on...

Talking of the future, I’ve also stopped to consider whether it’s worthwhile building Sistine at this point – purely to deny it to the AI. My inclination is to avoid it and invest the hammers in a harbour and forge. However, wonder hogging is just so attractive. Must. Keep. Focussed.

If you have any (spoilered) tips, I’d love to know them.

Not a bad effort really. Well in control for that date.

 

[i_imperator]

learner gamer:

Spoiler :

I'm actually quite inspired with your game. I agree with Gumbolt that your well in control.In my game Khan settled a city with three archers and at 50% defenses so there was no way my axes could have finished him off. The only thing that bothers me is that oxford should be 1S from where it currently is. You missed out on a sea resource by not moving 1S from where it is. You Probably know this, but just in case, you can see the city's bfc by pressing Alt and X together and that will show it. Moving the cap is a good move also. I think Khans ex cap is a great beau site. Plenty of production and commerce. So far so good!
Can you remember the turn/date when you finished khan off? I just couldn't finish him before 800BC.

Gumbolt: Any tips on how i could have made the save better?(other than the health and happiness problems, and what can i do to help that problem?). Is the Bpt ok for this time in the game?

 

[learner gamer]

@stevoh and @Gumbolt: Thanks very much for the feedback! Like you though stevoh, I’m wondering what I could’ve done better...and whether you’ve actually hit on a theme for a future cookbook (unless I’ve missed it when it was run previously, which is more than possible): the no / limited GP farm map?

Thanks for the tip about Alt-X by the way stevoh, it’s actually one of the many things I didn’t / don’t know.

The rest is spoilered since it relates to queries stevoh raised about my saves.

Spoiler :

On the subject of Oxford, I actually quite deliberately decided to place it 1N of the iron – and miss being able to work the whale in the BFC. My reasoning was that having the hammers from the iron available in the BFC was going to be far more valuable than having the extras that come from working a whale tile – because there are no hills to mine in the area to provide an alternative source of hammers. As a result, the city’s actually very reliant on those hammers from the iron (which it would lose if I settled on top of the iron) for its production until I can lumbermill some of the forests in the vicinity – assuming I don’t chop them all first of course. In fact, that was part of the reason why I also detoured for music (to nab the great artist) and settle him in Oxford. Doing so enabled me to expand the borders fast enough to be able to ensure the city’s cultural borders pop a couple of times to enable me to pop a WB on the tile - and get the (market boosted) happy from it.

As for the turn date when I finished GK off, that was actually 1000BC – in other words, the very save I posted earlier. I know what you mean about the archers on a hill by the way – his last one took me four (CR1 and CR2 if I recall) promoted axes to finish him. As I mentioned in the earlier post, the reasons this was possible were (i) moving the capital and (ii) chopping and whipping out those axes ASAP. In addition, I also managed to have a woody II promoted warrior (you can see him west-ish of Karakorum in the save) steal two Mongolian workers just as GK was about to finish pasturing some horses, so thankfully my axes didn’t have to contend with any chariots en-route.

 

[vicawoo]

Small tips:
Cities with good food and granaries like Turfan can skip monuments and build libraries for culture.

London should get closer to cap before running scientists. That way you can work more nice tiles. This is why I don't like over-whipping cities about to run scientists.

York cancel the monument after the library.

You have marble, so you can go aestheticism/great library to generate most of your great scientists, and use either bulb astronomy or use liberalism to get astronomy.

Don't overbuild plains cottages in your capital for now. You won't be able to work them, and when you finally get hereditary rule happiness, you won't want to work them.

The bigger picture:
You're close to finishing mathematics, but you should be thinking about your first few big classical techs. Usually you'll have enough conquest to gold to get close to one. Right now your keys are that you have no extra happiness, but you still might want the great library.

Extra commerce cities. Particularly flood plains sites, which have food to fuel their own growth. This means your developed/high food cities should consider building settlers over buildings. It's a question of benefit: what gives you more beakers, a library, great scientist, or a faster 4 financial cottage city?

 

[vranasm]

@learner_gamer

I plan to play from your 1k BC save to 950AD and THEN compare the results. Should be exciting!
So I didnt look at your 950AD save and you have to wait for my comments ;-), but I dont expect better results then you.

 

[learner gamer]

Just for comparison, a save to 1320 AD. Things are looking OK IMHO but advice re: areas for improvement is always welcome.

Spoiler :

As mentioned in the last update, the tech path went towards optics to try and locate the other AI before going down civil service > paper > education. Not sure if this was entirely right because delaying education delayed universities – which philo Liz can build at double speed. I’d be interested to know what others have to say. That said, locating the other AI allowed for a few tech trades, allowing me to backfill for things like calendar, monotheism, construction and feudalism – whilst still managing to retain a decent tech lead. Having completed education, I’ve gone astro next to enable my civ to settle some more land (which my caravels have been revealing) and undertake a few resource trades to garner some much needed resources to allow the civ to grow.

Progress through the tech tree was aided by two great people this round: (i) a scientist (which was used to part bulb education) and (ii) an unexpected artist (who was burned for a golden age). The golden age allowed a change of civics into monotheism and bureaucracy and saw the English adopt Taoism. The religious switch meant that I risked some negative diplo consequences but, being separated by ocean from AI that I find are usually willing to trade, I was comfortable taking the risk to gain a hammer bonus on infrastructure and a happiness boost.

The good news is that the island is now finally beginning to fill out in the post civil service era...the key here IMHO was to double the number of workers by building another nine of them in the run-up to and immediate aftermath of civil service to get the land improved ASAP. Thanks to chain irrigation, a few of the northern cities can now finally grow and one last city on the west coast can now be settled. The next step IMHO is to settle that small NW island for all those seafood resources (two of which I don’t have) and then decide whether taking the barb cities on the islands close to AC is a good move. What does everyone think... take them, or leave them for AC to settle and so avoid the risk of losing them should AC DoW before I can reinforce them?

Going forward, liberalism is there for the taking any time I fancy – the other AI (which I’ve all met and proven the world is round in the process) don’t yet have paper or philosophy. Instead, they seem intent on going via guilds > banking, most likely for knights to kill each other in what is the latest war (this time between Gilgamesh and van Oranje) and possibly the merchant from economics. The winner of that war could actually become a very real threat.

In the meantime, I’ve also managed to generate another great scientist who’s currently sitting in London – he could get used to bulb printing press or may get kept to bulb chemistry to see if I can open up steel from liberalism. Indeed, I guess the next phase is all about military techs given that redcoats will become available before too long. If anyone has any ideas about how best to get them (and how / whether to incorporate nationalism and drafting into the mix) I’d love to hear them.

 

[vranasm]

ok my "round" to 950AD...

dunno if I did everything right but...

Spoiler :

Ok i did it this way:

techs math->cur->aesth->lit, mixed in there sailing with IW, then probably CS->paper (I think I got something before it dunno what though)->edu (partly bulbed)->phi->compass, but can switch to lib.

Cities, I expanded slowly, 6 cities around 1AD, then slowly build up to 10 cities, used the marks by learner_gamer ;-) wanted to somewhat copy him. I didnt placed the horse+gold city... I just dont like that spot.

 

[vranasm]

@learner_gamer

Spoiler :

checked your 950AD save, i am a bit surprised that on sustainable bpt i am that much forward.
I think you did bad thing with your Great Prophets, if you check my save you can see I settled 2 in karakorum, 1 i burned for GA. They provide 2x5 gold. You build with one shrine, but you have only 2 cities with religion, so you lose 3 gold against settling.

I see you have other plans with wheat+cow+fish city, that's fine, since we both made london GP farm. but I hope the east city can eventually overtake some duty.

I liked that you got 7 GPs overall, I only 5 (3 of them GPs grrhm! what probability it really is that out first 4 gps you get 3 GPs when you run 2 scient all the time with oracle only?)


you got more cities, that's fine, but I still dont like that horse+gold city...but the horses are probably worth it...maybe...

I had my doubts about Nottingham...it will probably be commerce afterall.

 

[learner gamer]

@vranasm:

Spoiler :

That’s a great save! Indeed, it’s far better than mine!

In fact, you actually nailed the very point I made in my subsequent 1320 AD post – that it was probably far better for me to go to education and then optics (whereas I went the other way round) because Liz is philosophical (a detail I forgot until it was too late! )...so you get access to double quick universities. The gamble you took to delay The Parthenon (I’ve seen it gone in alot of games by the date you nabbed it) also paid off big time...and if you can get The Colossus as well (which went in 580AD in my playthrough, so it wasn’t an option), you have the game already won! In fact, I may even try a reversal and play from your 950 AD save...a brilliant effort!

 

[vranasm]

@vranasm:

Spoiler :

That’s a great save! Indeed, it’s far better than mine!

In fact, you actually nailed the very point I made in my subsequent 1320 AD post – that it was probably far better for me to go to education and then optics (whereas I went the other way round) because Liz is philosophical (a detail I forgot until it was too late! )...so you get access to double quick universities. The gamble you took to delay The Parthenon (I’ve seen it gone in alot of games by the date you nabbed it) also paid off big time...and if you can get The Colossus as well (which went in 580AD in my playthrough, so it wasn’t an option), you have the game already won! In fact, I may even try a reversal and play from your 950 AD save...a brilliant effort!

Spoiler :

actually I dont count with paya and colossus that I get them...they were just free so I burn some bonused hammers and will get at least good money to burn if it fails...

actually I dont think I need colossus...I have not that many cities that would be really boosted.

ha! I didnt know that unis will be quicker whipped :-D, but since I usually whip them asap and get after CS asap for them...it's just routine from me...

Small problem with optics is that it allows you to trade with new AIs but doesnt bring you better eco...OTOH lib->Astro...now that we are really talking!

 

[vranasm]

btw what victory condition is most suitable here?

I am almost willing to take SS...

 

[huerfanista]

Having fun playing this one. Update thru 1826AD:

Spoiler :

Settled N on the coast to grab the 2 floodplains. Opening tech order was just plain dumb (BW before AH ), but I was still able to take Genghis out around 500BC IIRC (I'm too lazy to open my own save, ATM ). He had 5 cities already founded, but - as a result - too few defenders. I kept 3 cities, although I should have razed the horse city as well (honestly, I go brain dead while warring sometimes).

After that, my treasury was well stocked (due to capturing 5 cities), and I immediately deleted 3 axes, the remainder used to spawnbust. I popped masonry from a hut very early, so after writing I went for PH and built the oracle. I took CoL, after weighing MC long and hard. I decided I wanted courthouses and a religion more than I wanted the colossus. I also built the parth and GLib, and moved my capital to the hill/floodplains spot NE of London (great bureau cap). Then it was calendar, CS, and heading for liberalism. I could see a purplish border off the east coast, so a settled my next city there to make contact once borders popped. I was hoping for Gandhi or Ashoka, but got Ragnar instead. In spite of religious difference, I got him to pleased pretty quick and was evenually able to trade some techs.

Once lib was 1 turn away, I went for compass> mach> optics and took astro frm lib. I got the circumnav bonus and met everyone. Roos was a monster (a nice change from his usual role as patsy), and he eventually vassaled Ragnar. Willem was teching nice, Gilgamesh was at war with Rags and then Roos, Auggie was backward and became a good trading partner - he's been at friendly most of the game, especially once I went to FR. After astro and nat (built the Taj) I headed towards rifling and MilTrad. I settled the 2 continents W and N of the romans, and was slowly building up cavalry and recoats while teching to steel. I was first to econ and popped 2 other GMs for nice overseas TMs to keep research cooking along.

Out of nowhere, Roos DoWs me (he had much worse relations with Gilligan, and was cautious with me). I used the opportunity to take Washington and another coastal city right after I got combustion. I took a 10-turn breather while building up more MGs, cavalry, and redcoats, then took 2 more cities, along with Ragnar's capital, shortly after getting flight. An opportunistic DoW on both of them by Willem enabled me to immediately cap Roos and Rags.

Current situation is I'm at around 45% land and pop, I'm 6 turns from AL (already have Electricity and Radio, but so do the Romans). Once I've got a few more bombers I'll DoW Gilgamesh (he has rifles), then decide on Willem (he has infantry) or Auggie (rifles, going culture). After fascism I'll shut off the slider and go 100% rush-buy (I have Kremlin).

Unfortunately, it'll be 2 weeks before I can get back to the game to finish it up.

View attachment Stephen AD-1826.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[i_imperator]

I have finished this game, 1874 UN Win.Thanks for the great advice, which helped me get to this victory.

Spoiler :

Here are the final pics.I forgot to tell you guys that Permanent alliances were on.Getting that alliance with roosevelt helped me win. He built the UN though.
I killed khan and bribed Roosevelt into war with giggles. Giggles finished off ragnar for me. Then i made a defensive pact with Roosevelt, after a while he was willing to share a permanent alliance with him.

Not a great score (or my best) but i'll take it, a win is a win after all

And the save.

 

[vranasm]

gj stevoh... a win is a win and this was a bit tough map, so congrats