Israel: The Cher solution

[RedRalph]

Regardless of your opinion of the current Israeli state, few people would argue that in the late 40s the Jews had ample reason to feel that they could no longer trust existing nations to protect them as a minority. The brits gave in to terrorism and gave them Palestine, which was their distant ancestral home, but unfortunately there was still many non Jews living there, and as well all know so began 50 years of strife, which has no end in sight.

What alternatives could have been pursued to giving Jews a homeland?

Could the Germans, considering their evil actions of WW2, have given the Jews part of the country, possibly under american protection? German minorities around Europe had been herded out of non German lands, Czech, Poland, etc, could a Jewish state have been set up in Bavaria, and had US military prescence to reassure Jews?

What about Siberia? Extremely unlikely I know, but dont forget there already was an autonomous Jewish Oblast there (still is), could this have been extended into a Jewish homeland proper?

I realise both these solutions are far-fetched (especially the second one), but given how the RL 'solution' has worked out, surely its possible to imagine a better one?

 

[brennan]

When the Arabs rejected the partition plan there should have been a period of intense diplomatic pressure to attempt to push the partition through with agreement on all sides.

When Israel's existence was declared without the agreement of its neighbours there was bound to be trouble.

 

[Arwon]

Yeah, giving the Ashkenazi Jews the run of part of former Germany would have been an interestingly poetical solution.

 

[REDY]

I was thinking about it before and Sudetenland would be ideal. The Germans and Czechs were expelled anyway and it was nice place. Under international presence it should also have positive influence on Czechoslovakia and been buffer state dividing Germans and Czechs.

 

[RedRalph]

I was thinking about it before and Sudetenland would be ideal. The Germans and Czechs were expelled anyway and it was nice place. Under international presence it should also have positive influence on Czechoslovakia and been buffer state dividing Germans and Czechs.

an interesting thought REDY, but would there have been a bit of a taboo about taking the Sudetenland away form Czechoslovakia a second time?

 

[Arwon]

Well they were commies so who cares?

 

[Winner]

Regardless of your opinion of the current Israeli state, few people would argue that in the late 40s the Jews had ample reason to feel that they could no longer trust existing nations to protect them as a minority. The brits gave in to terrorism and gave them Palestine, which was their distant ancestral home, but unfortunately there was still many non Jews living there, and as well all know so began 50 years of strife, which has no end in sight.

What alternatives could have been pursued to giving Jews a homeland?

Could the Germans, considering their evil actions of WW2, have given the Jews part of the country, possibly under american protection? German minorities around Europe had been herded out of non German lands, Czech, Poland, etc, could a Jewish state have been set up in Bavaria, and had US military prescence to reassure Jews?

What about Siberia? Extremely unlikely I know, but dont forget there already was an autonomous Jewish Oblast there (still is), could this have been extended into a Jewish homeland proper?

I realise both these solutions are far-fetched (especially the second one), but given how the RL 'solution' has worked out, surely its possible to imagine a better one?

Palestine was the only option, Jews wouldn't have accepted anything else and I perfectly understand it.

Their only mistake was that they didn't remove all the Arabs from Palestine when they had a chance. Arab population could have been resettled in other Arabic countries in the region.

BTW, Bavaria solution is the most ridiculous one.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Regardless of your opinion of the current Israeli state, few people would argue that in the late 40s the Jews had ample reason to feel that they could no longer trust existing nations to protect them as a minority. The brits gave in to terrorism and gave them Palestine, which was their distant ancestral home, but unfortunately there was still many non Jews living there, and as well all know so began 50 years of strife, which has no end in sight.

What alternatives could have been pursued to giving Jews a homeland?

Could the Germans, considering their evil actions of WW2, have given the Jews part of the country, possibly under american protection? German minorities around Europe had been herded out of non German lands, Czech, Poland, etc, could a Jewish state have been set up in Bavaria, and had US military prescence to reassure Jews?

What about Siberia? Extremely unlikely I know, but dont forget there already was an autonomous Jewish Oblast there (still is), could this have been extended into a Jewish homeland proper?

I realise both these solutions are far-fetched (especially the second one), but given how the RL 'solution' has worked out, surely its possible to imagine a better one?

Not trying to digress, but the Brits supported Zionism long before the first Jewish terrorist did anything to the Brits.

If you recognize the need for a Jewish country, then only Israel is an option. There was another offer, Uganda, but it was rejected by the Zionists, because no one would immigrate there. Palestine is the place Jews came from, only reasonable it is the place they will return to.

 

[Winner]

an interesting thought REDY, but would there have been a bit of a taboo about taking the Sudetenland away form Czechoslovakia a second time?

What he said is 0% realistic.

The truth is that the post-war government had no idea what to do with Sudetenland, all they cared about was to punish the local Germans for helping Hitler destroy Czechoslovakia.

The ex-German territories were pretty wild - imagine third of the present-day Czech Republic virtually depopulated, with empty villages and towns and nobody to take care of the land. In the first years, people from all around Czechoslovakia were settling there pretty much like Americans did in the Wild West. Then the communist government started to organize the resettlement. Many Slovak Hungarians were resettled there, to make their presence in Southern Slovakia less concentrated.

Czechoslovakia was helping the Jews to settle in Palestine (which kinda irked the British), but it would never allow them to create an independent state in Sudetenland, that's completely ridiculous.

 

[Tee Kay]

Their only mistake was that they didn't remove all the Arabs from Palestine when they had a chance. Arab population could have been resettled in other Arabic countries in the region.

Yes, and the resettlement of Palestinian Arabs really went smoothly didn't it?

The reality is, the Palestinians won't accept anything other than Palestine either (and to be fair they were the majority in 1947), and the neighbouring Arab countries didn't really want them. But you're right in that the Zionists won't accept anything other than Israel.

 

[RedRalph]

Hmm... just found this on Wiki under homeland for the Jewish people

In the early 20th century Cyprus and El Arish and its environs were proposed as a site for Jewish settlement by Herzl.

Jewish Autonomous Oblast was a region created by the Soviet Union in the Russian Far East. It has been in existence from 1934 to the present.

The Kimberley Plan was a failed plan by the Freeland League, led by Isaac Nachman Steinberg, to resettle Jewish refugees from Europe in the Kimberley region in Australia before and during the Holocaust.[6]

Krasnaya Sloboda - The town is the primary settlement of Azerbaijan's population of Mountain Jews, who make up the population of approximately 4,000.

Kiryas Joel, New York - a town composed largely of Yiddish-speaking Hasidic Jews.

Sitka, Alaska - a plan for Jews to settle the Sitka area in Alaska, the Slattery Report, was proposed by U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt's Secretary of the Interior Harold L. Ickes in 1939 but turned down.[7] An alternate history of the proposal where Jews do settle in Sitka is the subject of author Michael Chabon's novel The Yiddish Policemen's Union.

Vietnam - Vietnamese government officials in 2005, told Israeli officials of a plan discussed between Ho Chi Minh and Moshe Dayan to invite Jews to live in the country. No documentation of the offer and discussion has yet been made available. There is currently a small expatriate community of Jews in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City, intermarrying with Vietnamese, with the first Bar Mitzvah in Vietnam held in 2004, in Hanoi. There are currently no synagoges in Vietnam. Though there were French Jews in the country before 1954, there is no confirmation of any synagogue in Saigon. Reported by David Lempert, researcher in Vietnam, 1998-2006 </ref>

 

[Winner]

Yes, and the resettlement of Palestinian Arabs really went smoothly didn't it?

The reality is, the Palestinians won't accept anything other than Palestine either (and to be fair they were the majority in 1947), and the neighbouring Arab countries didn't really want them. But you're right in that the Zionists won't accept anything other than Israel.

Well, imho the Palestinian refugees were taken hostage by the Arab governments. If the other Arab states allowed their integration right from the beginning, the Palestinian problem would not exist.

If Israel had removed the Arabs from Israel+Gaza+West Bank, the whole area would be much more peaceful now.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

As I recall, there was a country known as "America", which already had a large Jewish population and had historically proven a tempting destination for immigrants.

 

[RedRalph]

As I recall, there was a country known as "America", which already had a large Jewish population and had historically proven a tempting destination for immigrants.

so you mean they should have been given a state, like the mormons?

 

[Tee Kay]

Well, imho the Palestinian refugees were taken hostage by the Arab governments. If the other Arab states allowed their integration right from the beginning, the Palestinian problem would not exist.

If Israel had removed the Arabs from Israel+Gaza+West Bank, the whole area would be much more peaceful now.

Like Czechoslovakia and Poland was after they removed the Germans. Of course. The Palestinians would soon forget they ever used to live in Palestine for thirteen centuries, that they ever had holy places over there, and they would be welcomed with open arms by their Arab brothers and would soon settle down into prosperous lives. Perhaps they would even send the Zionists who now possesses their lands nice presents congratulating their new lives in Israel.

There are too many ifs in this utopian scenario IMHO. The biggest one of all is the assumption that the Palestinians would take forced resettlement in peace-time conditions as "quietly" as the Germans did after the Second World War.

 

[Pannonius]

Yeah, giving the Ashkenazi Jews the run of part of former Germany would have been an interestingly poetical solution.

And what about the Germans living there?

 

[Arwon]

Probably the same as happened to Germans in the Polish parts of Prussia.

 

[RedRalph]

Probably the same as happened to Germans in the Polish parts of Prussia.

Yup. Frankly the mood in Europe in 45 was not very sympathetic to German's rights...

 

[holy king]

they should have given them carinthia, noone needs it anyway.

 

[Princeps]

Palestine was the only option, Jews wouldn't have accepted anything else and I perfectly understand it.

Why should we give a damn. Some pathetic obscurantist bronze age Jewish myths do not justify ethnic cleansing and land robbery anymore than me saying that I own your land because the invisible pink unicorn told me so.

Their only mistake was that they didn't remove all the Arabs from Palestine when they had a chance. Arab population could have been resettled in other Arabic countries in the region.

So you're advocating mass murder and ethnic cleansing. Good that we know that.

Why should the Palestinians be expelled and relocated into the Muslim world, which is largely ruled by violent and corrupt regimes. The Palestinians would probably end up in squalid slums and would've ended up been exploited by the tyrants ruling Arabia and the muslim world.

It would've been much more feasible to move the Jews of Europe into the USA, where they had (and still have) a strong and friendly government and more or less friendly culture. Also, the USA, which was and remains the most powerful and prosperous economy on earth, could've easily absorbed few million refugees from Europe into its economy, whereas the Arab economies and cultures had trouble absorbing even small groups of refugees.

So your argument is fallacious and deeply racist, because it has the tacit premise that an Arab life is worthless and irrelevant and Jewish life is important and privileged.

BTW, Bavaria solution is the most ridiculous one.

Why? If the German state perpetuated the crime of holocaust, why should the Arabs of Palestine, who had little or nothing whatsoever to do with the crime, suffer the consiquences?

Also, the fact that the Arab regimes, which are almost totally illegimate and undemocratic (mainly because they were and remain undemocratic) perpetuated crimes against the Palestinian refugees, does not the change the fact that a staggering crime of ethnic cleansing, mass murder, mass torture and land robbery was perpetuated against the Palestinian people by zionist fanatics.