It was inevitable... Is the Israeli crackdown on Hamas justified?

[Ecofarm]

1. That's "you're with us or against us" nonesense

When it comes to terrorism, such a position is not "nonsense". I also take that position against child molesters, rapists and murderers. I'm not with them, I'm against them.

- to repeat another poster: these are not the only forms of resistence.

Then tell me what imaginary resistance you were referring to. You were very specific. You were talking about Palestine. Now, what other form of resistance does Pali practice?? Considering your (3.) below, I think it is quite obvious that you were endorsing terrorism.

2. I would suggest the condsideration that there are no 'civilians' in a democracy - where all vote...

That's absurd. Not everyone gets what they want in a democracy.

3. Do a people not have a right to attempt to throw out an invader by whatever means they have available?

An invader? :rollie eyes: Israel is more like a savior for those savages.

My take is that there are power-blocs on both sides with a very obvious vested interest in maintaining the conflict, meanwhile the average Joe-Jew/Palestinian is not served by it.

If Palestine stops the terrorism, problem solved. There is only one power-bloc to be concerned with - the terrorists.

Ultimately though, I don't believe Israel can reasonably pretend to a position of 'woe, I'm a victim' meanwhile occupying and settling territories they have taken by force - indeed, they took the whole territory by force - and have since made no obviously sincere effort at conciliation - only that so qualified with high-handing conditions as to make them most unpalatable to even the least prideful people.

The bolded part shows how completely wrong and biased that statement is. It is in SERIOUS need of an education.

In the end, lets be honest - as this conflict is not simply about Palestinians and Israelis - as it's about wider issues and far bigger players...

That's right. It's about not targetting civilians.

 

[El_Machinae]

This is why I think Israel should send in troops. Right now, the only actual way for the militants to resist Israel is to use inaccurate rockets. If Israel was willing to lose some blood, but putting boots on the ground, they could grind down the militants.

It's impossible to garner a reduction in militancy by using return-fire missiles against suspected militant locations. The locals will only notice the civilians who died, and the youth will only care about the apparent cowardice of using airstrikes.

 

[emzie]

Is Egypt allowing physicians and supplies to go through the border?

Egypt is letting injured Palestinians into their territory. They have hospital beds waiting.

This is why I think Israel should send in troops. Right now, the only actual way for the militants to resist Israel is to use inaccurate rockets. If Israel was willing to lose some blood, but putting boots on the ground, they could grind down the militants.

It's impossible to garner a reduction in militancy by using return-fire missiles against suspected militant locations. The locals will only notice the civilians who died, and the youth will only care about the apparent cowardice of using airstrikes.

Yes. Either Israel needs to fully commit, or needs to fully stop.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

No. Launching airstrikes killing women and children and terrifying the hell out of your own people is not the way to deal with terrorism.

 

[BSmith1068]

We will why see below.

It is NOT "tit-for-tat". They do not do the same thing. Israel does not target civilians. How dare you pretend their actions are the same.

Hamas is certainly not responding to the targetting of civilians, which is what Israel is responding to.

Maybe, if the person is an idiot. Otherwise, it is VERY clear who the terrorists are.

Undecided? Haha. Yea right.

Thanks for being an ass about it. There is no need to get all incendiary over a legitimate question.

I said in my original post (you know – the one part of it you completely ignored) that on the face of it Israel is justified for taking this specific action against Hamas, but that we should look at the deeper issues to really know who is at fault.

No country should endure nor tolerate terrorist or outright attacks against them. But neither should a population be subjected to oppression, discrimination and occupation. The whole situation is not a simple as saying – “hey, you lobbed rockets at me, I’m gonna kill you.”

So excuse me for not being a superficial knee-jerk idealist on this issue. I think that both sides have legitimate complaints, and both sides are justified to a certain degree. The question I have is who is more justified in this specific instance. That I still can not answer with certainty. I am leaning towards Israel being justified, but I also think that it is not going to be effective in the long run, and therefore counterproductive.

 

[Verbose]

Many people = terrorists and their apologists. You are talking about supporting suicide bombing against civilians here.

The natural response to opression is still rebellion. No surprises there.

The Hamas choice of method is perverse though, and counterproductive for the Palestinians in general.

 

[LucyDuke]

I am objecting to the specific resistance taking place in this situation - suicide bombing and rockets targetting civilians.

Are you aware of some other form of resistance he might have been referring to? Yes or no. If yes, please explain.

Let us not completely abandon context. We are talking about Palestinian resistance, specifically - not resistance in general (as even he specified). Palestinian resistance = terrorism, unless you have another form of resistance that they take part in that you are about to tell us about...

This is the second post I have had to ask. If not suicide bombing and random rockets... what WAS he referring to??

I'll play Plato and explain by analogy:

Person 1: The Lions have great team.
Person 2: They lost every game and they suck.
Person 1: Oh no, I was reffering to this guy named Joe who works in the laundry room, he's great.

Spare me.

Tell you what, let's you and I not get into another row. We'll let Mountain come back and explain what resistance, exactly, he was talking about (if it is not the OBVIOUS resistance).

Yeah, that's nice. If you're objecting to that particular type of "resistance" (namely the terrorism perpetrated by.. whatever they call themselves), then we're done. We've got no disagreement. I don't care what mountain guy was talking about.

Also I think it's freakin' hilarious that Cyn McKinney was on that boat.

 

[Ecofarm]

The natural response to opression is still rebellion. No surprises there.

The Hamas choice of method is perverse though, and counterproductive for the Palestinians in general.

Who was talking about the natural response to oppression? Further, I would say that Israel does not oppress Palestine; Israel defends itself against Palestine. You ignore context and throw in slander against Israel. Nice.

Yeah, that's nice. If you're objecting to that particular type of "resistance" (namely the terrorism perpetrated by.. whatever they call themselves), then we're done. We've got no disagreement. I don't care what mountain guy was talking about.

Well I was responding to this (I quoted it in my response):

Many people see that Isreal occupies Palestine and judge resistence both appropriate and even necessary.

This was not some general discussion about resistance! Just stop that! It was very specific to these circumstances. Lastly, Mountain himself proved that he was talking about endorsing terrorism, just as I suspected. Now why does everyone jump all over me for noticing it?!

3. Do a people not have a right to attempt to throw out an invader by whatever means they have available?

Case closed.

That "judge resistance both appropriate and even necessary" was an endorsement of terrorism and I objected. Now get off my back.

 

[El_Machinae]

Eco, you're missing out on some real data if you don't think Israel oppresses Palestine.

 

[Ecofarm]

They take the necessary measures for security and to stop terrorism. Nothing more.

They GIVE Palestine more than it could produce every year. And so does the rest of the world. Palestine is not starving, Palestine does not have cholera and Palestine is not AIDS ravaged. Palestine destroys $14,000,000 worth of greenhouses that were given to it FOR FREE. I'm tired of hearing about these would-be first worlders who piss their future away in hate as if they are victims.

 

[Fëanor]

While targeted bombings of the members and assets of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades (the Military Wing of Hamas) by Israel is certainly justified, blocking humanitarian aid to the Gaza strip is not.

The Gaza strip is basically a super ghetto and life there is already bad as it is, over half the population are refugees and most still live in overcrowded refugee camps, each time that Israel blocks humanitarian aid from entering the Gaza strip the living conditions become truly miserable. History shows that Collective punishment does not work, intelligence and targeted strikes against the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades combined with active (Unilateral if Israel feels it has no trustworthy partners in the Gaza Strip) attempts to solve the local problems would eliminate those that would seek to harm Israeli's while at the same time decrease the numbers of those willing to take part in the Intifada, gradually paving the road to a lasting peace.

 

[Mountain-God]

An invader? :rollie eyes: Israel is more like a savior for those savages.

I think this sentence is most telling of your mind-set and relative worth of continued 'debate' - which is to say: None.

For other posters:

20 years ago I had a great deal of sympathy for Israel – even despite their effective invasion of the territory and subsequent expansions. But what were then called ‘temporary’ or (like the Golan Heights&#8217 ‘buffer zones against aggression’ have since become permanently settled. Ultimately, while I had sympathy 20 years ago, and during that time many Israelis have resisted their government’s aggression (even to the point of pilots refusing to bomb Palestinian villages), the bull-dozers have kept on working, the ‘settlements’ have kept on expanding… The Israeli military has even knowingly bombed and killed UN peacekeepers. Several New Zealander's (along with UN people from other countries) were killed last year.

I guess my sympathy has worn out.

That’s my feeling on the matter – I don’t see Israel as the poor victim of the region.

Some people get in a tizzy if I suggest anything other than that country’s perfection

The word 'terrorism' is often bandied about to whack the 'bad guys' with - meanwhile countries like the USA have become something like terror states - officially sanctioning torture and kidnapping and so on.

I think it's time to grow up - look past the Nationalist jingoism toward something better and more honourable.

 

[Ecofarm]

Being anti-terrorist is not nationalism. Further, you're little slide into insanity is not interesting.

meanwhile countries like the USA have become something like terror states

That's right, the above post is so stupid that real rollie eyes, even if they come with a santa hat, are warranted.

 

[El_Machinae]

The rolleyes would mean more if y'all weren't propping up Saudi Arabia and torturing people ...

They take the necessary measures for security and to stop terrorism. Nothing more.

They GIVE Palestine more than it could produce every year. And so does the rest of the world. Palestine is not starving, Palestine does not have cholera and Palestine is not AIDS ravaged. Palestine destroys $14,000,000 worth of greenhouses that were given to it FOR FREE. I'm tired of hearing about these would-be first worlders who piss their future away in hate as if they are victims.

They. They. They.

It must be fun to stereotype and lump 1.5 million people into one big homogenous group. You cannot forget that they live behind an imposed wall that, when felled, allowed 500,000 people to go get food.

As well, isn't Israel given more money each year than it can produce?

 

[Ecofarm]

The rolleyes would mean more if y'all weren't propping up Saudi Arabia and torturing people ...

Like anyone does not deal with Saudi. You indict the world? Lame. If you think we can just isolate Saudi, you need to grow up. Torturing people? We waterboarded 3 people. Get some perspective, your claim looks stupid. You're not stupid, so what's the deal? Just trying to equate 3 waterboardings to dozens of beheadings, thousands of targetted civilian victims and tens of thousands of torturings by terrorist states? Nice equivalence there. GET SOME PERSPECTIVE.

They. They. They.

What, too many pronouns?

It must be fun to stereotype and lump 1.5 million people into one big homogenous group. You cannot forget that they live behind an imposed wall that, when felled, allowed 500,000 people to go get food.

Those people did not get food. They got cigarettes and pot. Some went drinking for the weekend. Another got a refridgerator. I've already posted the story. Noone was desperate for food and fuel - you are completely inventing this destitution for political purposes. Noone has ever starved in Palestine since the creation of Israel - EVER! Not one person! Just stop with this "they are desperate for food" BS. Noone was bringing carloads of food back into Palestine. Cigarettes were BY FAR the largest product strapped to cars (that people were driving!).

As well, isn't Israel given more money each year than it can produce?

Check Israel's GDP.

 

[LucyDuke]

Now get off my back.

You're priceless, you know that?

 

[sysyphus]

Who was talking about the natural response to oppression? Further, I would say that Israel does not oppress Palestine; Israel defends itself against Palestine. You ignore context and throw in slander against Israel. Nice.

As an example, how does Israel's strict control of border crossings between the West Bank and Jordan, preventing many Palestinian farmers from carrying out their livelihoods, constitute defending itself?

 

[Ecofarm]

Let's guess... they are bringing arms in from Jordan? NO! They would NEVER do that!

 

[El_Machinae]

And controlling the aquifers?

 

[Ecofarm]

You're priceless, you know that?

You know I do

And controlling the aquifers?

I heard that most of the aquifers happen to fall under Palestinian land, this poses a problem for Israel, but I don't know if that is true for sure.

Does Palestine not get enough water? I have not heard of sanitation problems in Palestine. Anyway, look at the google-earth imagine of Israel and see where all of the crops are grown. Those require most of the water. I do not think Israel is intending to limit water to Palestine in order to cause hardship. The water is probably allocated rationally.