It was inevitable... Is the Israeli crackdown on Hamas justified?

[Mountain-God]

Sure Israel has a legitimate right to respond to attacks on its people and territory. So does every nation. Question is just 1) is this effective, and 2) is it a reasonable response in relation to the threat? No clear arithmetic exists to gauge either.

Many people see that Isreal occupies Palestine and judge resistence both appropriate and even necessary.

 

[emzie]

Many people see that Isreal occupies Palestine and judge resistence both appropriate and even necessary.

Such people are blinded by their idealism and do nothing to help bring about a lasting peace.

 

[Ecofarm]

Many people see that Isreal occupies Palestine and judge resistence both appropriate and even necessary.

Many people = terrorists and their apologists. You are talking about supporting suicide bombing against civilians here.

 

[Riffraff]

It is NOT "tit-for-tat". They do not do the same thing. Israel does not target civilians. How dare you pretend their actions are the same.

Certainly aint no "tit-for-tat" if you look at the deaths either. Israel is leading 360-4 at the moment according to Spiegel Online.

On the issue - no idea, certainly understand them going in harshly and I'm sure that any other western country suffering civilian deaths proportionaly to what Israel is suffering would go absolutely crazy on Gaza. I'm quite sure the offensive we will useless midterm and probably harmful in the longterm.

My jewish a buddy is staunch supporter of the whole wall and separation approach and he's got me convinced.

 

[Ecofarm]

On the issue - no idea, certainly understand them going in harshly and I'm sure that any other western country suffering civilian deaths proportionaly to what Israel is suffering would go absolutely crazy on Gaza.

But eastern countries would not? Saddam gassed over 100000 (probably over 200000) kurds because they were getting "uppity", remember?

You mean China is different, in its treatment of Tibet?

Obviously the above two examples are FAR in excess of what Israel does in reponse to threats, to the point of being war crimes. What Israel does is a reasonable response to actual attacks.

Where's the east/west divide here? If anything, the east overreacts to such things.

 

[Riffraff]

But eastern countries would not? Saddam gassed over 100000 (probably over 200000) kurds because they were getting "uppity", remember?

You mean China is different, in its treatment of Tibet?

Obviously the above two examples are FAR in excess of what Israel does in reponse to threats, to the point of being war crimes. What Israel does is a reasonable response.

Where's the east/west divide here? If anything, the east overreacts to such things.

You know that I was speaking in favor of Israel here right?

I make the split because I hold western democracies to a higher standard than some dictorship in Africa/Asia.

 

[LucyDuke]

I don't see how this will help anything.

Many people = terrorists and their apologists. You are talking about supporting suicide bombing against civilians here.

That's not the only possible form of resistance. Don't be stupid.

 

[Winner]

Winner:

I can't vote. I do not approve of "any means necessary", and I do not have reservations about the actions taken thusfar. The options go from "NUKE EM!" to "I have some reservations". There is no rational but full approval option. One can only fully approve of Israel's actions thusfar, according to the poll, if they are a "NUKE EM!" person.

I thought you supported the actions of Israel. Why would you gear the poll such that anyone who fully endorses the actions thusfar looks like a maniac "ANY MEANS NECCESARY!!11!!".

Balance: I mocked the israel-haters too.

 

[Azale]

Unfortunately, it is an election year in Israel and a hardline stance against Palestine is what gets you elected. Safety of oneself and one's family will always be the most important issue and if the best defence is a best offence, Israeli aggression (whether it be justified or not) will always win out.

How I think it should be done: Now, I think Israel (who I am an usually an ardent supporter of) is going about this in the completely wrong way. The anti-Semitic nature of much of the world makes it so that Israel will be criticized for any type of offensive action, no matter how justified. It is Jews, with the help of sophisticated killing machines and the United States, killing freedom fighters who are merely reacting to their oppressed situation. Therefore, I think it is in the best interest of Israel to not respond at all to these rocket attacks. They must work to try to shoot them out of the sky rather than bombing the place of assembly. By not responding with violence to Hamas's violence, the situations can be reversed. Hamas will be shown for the terrorists they truly are and Israel, through some sob stories, will gain sympathy from the moderates, rather than garnering their dissaproval.

Hamas cannot exist in peacetime. They survive based on the fuel provided from the struggle against oppression. If Israel eases up the blockade, leaves Gaza alone, and does not respond to any provacative action by Hamas, things should work out. Hamas will try to goad Israel into taking the offensive, but when Israel does not do this, the pressure is on Hamas, not Israel. In this situation, Hamas can either make a larger attack which will be frowned upon because Israel had done nothing to warrant this attack. Or Hamas can try to develop Gaza which goes against their ideology; they were voted in to fight against oppression. If there is no inkling of oppression, Hamas cannot succeed. Hamas is like fascism; it cannot succeed outside of wartime.


And I voted "no this is not the correct way to deal with Hamas"

Your alternative solution is undone by your first point. Israel (and any party or leader who runs it) CANNOT sit idly by while its citizens get blown up and showered with rocket attacks from some rogue semi-fascist terror organization just to score brownie points from Brussels and Washington. Not if that party wants to hold onto power, which it most certainly does.

If a party DOES embrace that strategy, then it only leads to the rise of right wing parties like Likud and Shas anyway so there is no point. The greatest hope is political moderation offered by Kadima and even they have a rather small threshold for Hamas' aggressive actions.

Hamas has to be humiliated as a protector of the Palestinian people, both militarily (if necessary) and diplomatically. If Israel can reach an amicable agreement with a more traditional party like Fatah, then it might undermine the militant approach of Hamas. Maybe, hopefully

 

[Dachs]

If Israel can reach an amicable agreement with a more traditional party like Fatwah, then it might undermine the militant approach of Hamas. Maybe, hopefully

Nice one there dude.

 

[Azale]

Nice one there dude.

I have no idea what you're talking about

 

[Godwynn]

CNN

(CNN) -- An Israeli patrol boat struck a boat carrying medical volunteers and supplies to Gaza early Tuesday as it attempted to intercept the vessel in the Mediterranean Sea, witnesses and Israeli officials said.

CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul was aboard the 60-foot, Gibraltar-registered pleasure boat Dignity when the contact occurred. When the boat later docked in the Lebanese port city of Tyre, severe damage was visible to the forward port side of the boat, and the front left window and part of the roof had collapsed.

The Dignity was carrying crew and 16 passengers -- physicians from Britain, Germany and Cyprus and human rights activists, including former U.S. Rep. Cynthia McKinney -- who were trying to reach Gaza through an Israeli blockade of the territory.

The captain of the Dignity said the Israelis broadcast a radio message accusing the vessel of being involved in terrorist activity. But Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor denied that and said the radio message simply warned the vessel not to proceed to Gaza because it is a closed military area.

Palmor said there was no response to the radio message, and the vessel then tried to out-maneuver the Israeli patrol boat, leading to the collision.

Penhaul said at least two Israeli patrol boats had shadowed the Dignity for about half an hour before the collision, moving around the vessel on all sides. One of the patrol boats then shined its spotlight on the Dignity while the other, with its lights off, "very severely rammed" the boat.

The captain of the Dignity told Penhaul he received no prior warning. Only after the collision did the Israelis come on the radio to say they struck the boat because they believed it was involved in terrorist activities.

The captain and crew said their vessel was struck intentionally, Penhaul said, but Palmor called those allegations "absurd."

"There is no intention on the part of the Israeli navy to ram anybody," Palmor said.

"I would call it ramming. Let's just call it as it is," McKinney said. "Our boat was rammed three times, twice in the front and one on the side."

"Our mission was a peaceful mission to deliver medical supplies and our mission was thwarted by the Israelis -- the aggressiveness of the Israeli military," she said.

The incident occurred in international waters about 90 miles off Gaza. Israel controls the waters off Gaza's coast and routinely blocks ships from coming into the Palestinian territory as part of an ongoing blockade that also applies to the Israel-Gaza border. Human rights groups have expressed concern about the blockade on Gaza, which has restricted the delivery of emergency aid and fuel supplies.

The collision was so severe, Penhaul said, that the passengers were ordered to put on their life vests and be ready to get in lifeboats. The Dignity began taking on water, but the crew managed to pump it out of the hull long enough for the boat to reach shore.

Palmor said the vessel refused assistance after the incident.

The boat was carrying boxes of relief supplies, volunteers and journalists to Gaza, the Palestinian territory now subject to an intense Israeli bombing campaign.

Israel launched airstrikes against Gaza on Saturday in what Defense Minister Ehud Barak called an "all-out war" against the Palestinian militant group Hamas, which has ruled the territory since 2007.

The Palestinian death toll has topped 375, most of them Hamas militants, Palestinian medical sources said Tuesday. At least 60 civilians have been killed in Gaza, U.N. officials said.

Hamas has responded with volleys of rocket fire aimed at southern Israeli towns, which have left six Israelis dead -- five of them civilians.

Hamas has vowed to defend Gaza in the face of what it calls continued Israeli aggression. Each side blames the other for violating an Egyptian-brokered cease-fire, which formally expired December 19 but had been weakening for months.

Yikes.

 

[Ecofarm]

That's not the only possible form of resistance. Don't be stupid.

Excuse me, but

It is the form of resistance taking place. It is the form of resistance being promised by Hamas in response. It is the subject at hand and it was what was being referred to here:

Many people see that Isreal occupies Palestine and judge resistence both appropriate and even necessary.

Let's not completely lose context and ignore the subject at hand to change his statement.

What form of "resistance" would you have us believe was being referred to? Peaceful negotiation = resistence? BS. You know damn well what Pali resistance is. Why don't you tell me what he was talking about if not the ACTUAL "resistance" that goes on. Go ahead... what resistance was he referring to that some "people" supposedly find justified and necessary.

 

[emzie]

Yikes.

Should stay the f* away. If I'm the Israeli Navy, I'm not letting a rowboat through. To those trying to help Gaza, I'd say: bring all your medical supplies to the Egyptian border; it's the best way to help Palestinian civilians now... if that's what you actually care about anyway.

 

[Godwynn]

Should stay the f* away. If I'm the Israeli Navy, I'm not letting a rowboat through. To those trying to help Gaza, I'd say: bring all your medical supplies to the Egyptian border; it's the best way to help Palestinian civilians now... if that's what you actually care about anyway.

Is Egypt allowing physicians and supplies to go through the border?

 

[Ecofarm]

Israel is allowing Palis to go to Israeli hospitals (world-class hospitals). Do the Israeli victims of Palestinian attacks get to go to Pali hospitals? No, they would get their head chopped off, right?

See the difference?

One side targets civilians, tortures captives and chops off heads; the other gives free medical aid to those caught in the crossfire.

 

[LucyDuke]

Excuse me, but

It is the form of resistance taking place. It is the form of resistance being promised by Hamas in response. It is the subject at hand and it was what was being referred to here:

Let's not completely lose context and ignore the subject at hand to change his statement.

What form of "resistance" would you have us believe was being referred to? Peaceful negotiation = resistence? BS. You know damn well what Pali resistance is. Why don't you tell me what he was talking about if not the ACTUAL "resistance" that goes on. Go ahead... what resistance was he referring to that some "people" supposedly find justified and necessary.

Be more explicit in your objection, then. Don't object to "resistance", unless you actually think that's the problem. Object to the terrorism. Duh.

 

[Ecofarm]

Be more explicit in your objection, then. Don't object to "resistance", unless you actually think that's the problem. Object to the terrorism. Duh.

I am objecting to the specific resistance taking place in this situation - suicide bombing and rockets targetting civilians.

Are you aware of some other form of resistance he might have been referring to? Yes or no. If yes, please explain.

Let us not completely abandon context. We are talking about Palestinian resistance, specifically - not resistance in general (as even he specified). Palestinian resistance = terrorism, unless you have another form of resistance that they take part in that you are about to tell us about...

This is the second post I have had to ask. If not suicide bombing and random rockets... what WAS he referring to??

I'll play Plato and explain by analogy:

Person 1: The Lions have great team.
Person 2: They lost every game and they suck.
Person 1: Oh no, I was reffering to this guy named Joe who works in the laundry room, he's great.

Spare me.

Tell you what, let's you and I not get into another row. We'll let Mountain come back and explain what resistance, exactly, he was talking about (if it is not the OBVIOUS resistance).

 

[Mountain-God]

Many people = terrorists and their apologists. You are talking about supporting suicide bombing against civilians here.

1. That's "you're with us or against us" nonesense - to repeat another poster: these are not the only forms of resistence.

2. I would suggest the condsideration that there are no 'civilians' in a democracy - where all vote...

3. Do a people not have a right to attempt to throw out an invader by whatever means they have available?

My take is that there are power-blocs on both sides with a very obvious vested interest in maintaining the conflict, meanwhile the average Joe-Jew/Palestinian is not served by it.

Ultimately though, I don't believe Israel can reasonably pretend to a position of 'woe, I'm a victim' meanwhile occupying and settling territories they have taken by force - indeed, they took the whole territory by force - and have since made no obviously sincere effort at conciliation - only that so qualified with high-handing conditions as to make them most unpalatable to even the least prideful people.

In the end, lets be honest - as this conflict is not simply about Palestinians and Israelis - as it's about wider issues and far bigger players...

 

[Elrohir]

I don't know enough about the details of the operation or what they're planning to do next to say that I wholeheartedly approve of every detail. But, in essence, I think it's reasonable for Israel to respond to persistent violent attacks with her own violent response. Israel targeted launch sites for missiles that had been bombarding Israel for quite some time - and if Hamas was launching missiles out of a private home or Mosque and that got blown up, well....sorry, but that's what happens when you violate the laws of war.

CNN



Yikes.

The Drudge Link to this story is: "Cynthia McKinney 'relief boat' rammed by Israeli navy... "

I cheered. I only wish Cynthia McKinney had been thrown overboard by the impact.