It's official: Mali is in as a civ. -snicker-

[Invisible Rhino]

Here are some sources, read and understand them and you will see how completely wrong you are about most of the your points.

"Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World" by Jack Weatherford for the influence that the Mongols have had on the world for the past seven centuries. Start with this, it's easy to understand and written in layman's terms for the most part for a popular audience.

"A History of Inner Asia" by Svat Soucek for an introduction to the part of the world.

"Warfare in Inner Asian History" Nicola di Cosmo ed. Specifically "The Circulation of Military Technology in the Mongolian Empire" by Thomas Allsen. which will give you countless examples of how technology improved drastically as the result of the Mongol Empire.

"The Perilous Frontier" by Thomas Barfield for an understanding of how the Mongols revolutionized Asian warfare.

"The Veritable Records of Chinggis Khan" by Sarman and Uru'udai, and the documents contained in "In the Service of the Khan" Igor de Rachewitz ed. for primary sources on Mongolian rule and innovations.

"The History of the Yuan" by Song Lian, who most certainly didn't consider the Yuan a Chinese dynasty.

And for additional information consult the "Encyclopedia of Mongolia and the Mongol World Empire" by Christopher Atwood. It has every topic you could imagine.

 

[narmox]

Any people that had any kind of impact on history (ie, ALL people) deserve their place in a game called Civilization. Deserve their chance to "stand the test of time".

All the arguments can't deny that, and are just a bunch of hot electrons being thrown around.

 

[Xen]

Here are some sources, read and understand them and you will see how completely wrong you are about most of the your points.

"Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World" by Jack Weatherford for the influence that the Mongols have had on the world for the past seven centuries. Start with this, it's easy to understand and written in layman's terms for the most part for a popular audience.

"A History of Inner Asia" by Svat Soucek for an introduction to the part of the world.

"Warfare in Inner Asian History" Nicola di Cosmo ed. Specifically "The Circulation of Military Technology in the Mongolian Empire" by Thomas Allsen. which will give you countless examples of how technology improved drastically as the result of the Mongol Empire.

"The Perilous Frontier" by Thomas Barfield for an understanding of how the Mongols revolutionized Asian warfare.

"The Veritable Records of Chinggis Khan" by Sarman and Uru'udai, and the documents contained in "In the Service of the Khan" Igor de Rachewitz ed. for primary sources on Mongolian rule and innovations.

"The History of the Yuan" by Song Lian, who most certainly didn't consider the Yuan a Chinese dynasty.

And for additional information consult the "Encyclopedia of Mongolia and the Mongol World Empire" by Christopher Atwood. It has every topic you could imagine.

I've a look for them at my local bootstores (cant order off the internet; I dont plan on getting a credit card unless completelly necissary mind you) though I'm still skepticle on the over all impacts they may have made.

 

[Xen]

Any people that had any kind of impact on history (ie, ALL people) deserve their place in a game called Civilization. Deserve their chance to "stand the test of time".

All the arguments can't deny that, and are just a bunch of hot electrons being thrown around.

your right; but all these fight sar eover the pecking order of how actually get sot be represented, and represented first, without people having to go buy an x-pack

 

[Invisible Rhino]

I've a look for them at my local bootstores (cant order off the internet; I dont plan on getting a credit card unless completelly necissary mind you) though I'm still skepticle on the over all impacts they may have made.

Weatherford's book should be easy to find. It just came out last year, most of the others are somewhat to very difficult to get ahold of I'm afraid

Any people that had any kind of impact on history (ie, ALL people) deserve their place in a game called Civilization. Deserve their chance to "stand the test of time".

EXACTLY

 

[jimkirk]

your local library should have those books

 

[Vietcong]

i agree with xen, tho mongolia is a great power and a deserving civilazation, thay had litel infulence on much of any thing as thay adopted local customs

 

[Elrohir]

Mali as a civ - sounds good to me. Africa really needed another nation, Egypt and Carthage were more Mediterranean civs.

 

[Xen]

your local library should have those books

this is daytona beach your talking about. thier is nothing much of any particuler worth (though, perhaps thats changed; I havent been thier in a couple years)

 

[jimkirk]

to xen

not thaT i care one way or another if mongolia or mali or both are included

but babylon should have definitly been included regardless

 

[Fer de Lance]

Mali as a civ - sounds good to me. Africa really needed another nation, Egypt and Carthage were more Mediterranean civs.

why are people CONSTANTLY trying to take Egypt out of Africa? It's not just on here, I had a HIGH SCHOOL teacher once tell me that Egypt wasn't in Africa. Can someone please explain this to me

 

[rhialto]

Here's one that made it from China to Europe as a result of teh travcel made possible by the Mongols - pasta and spaghetti. Ramen is more or less teh direct ancestor of pasta in culinary terms.

 

[Evie]

why are people CONSTANTLY trying to take Egypt out of Africa? It's not just on here, I had a HIGH SCHOOL teacher once tell me that Egypt wasn't in Africa. Can someone please explain this to me

Mostly because, while the "technical" limit between Africa and Asia is around Suez, practically speaking, Suez was MUCH less of a barrier than the Sahara. Egypt greatly influenced and traded with the other nations of the Mediteranean bassin and the Middle East ; conversedly, it had very little dealings with the rest of Africa.

 

[RichardMNixon]

The Mongols should much rather be in as some kind of huge barbarian horde event - that would be the coolest solution IMHO! They'd storm around the map, pillage a lot and raze some cities to the ground; others they'd govern but after a while the cities would revert due to the non-existent culture of the Mongol rulers.

That would make a really neat conquest.
I think the mongols were one of THE most influential civilizations ever. I had never heard of Mali, and it does sound important, but I think the Mongols were the wrong civilization to complain about (compare to mesoamerica). Someone recently said that the mongol role was purely destructive, which I believe is still a role that can greatly affect history. However, I've very recently come to a conclusion in my history class that the Mongols are the primary reason for the modern situation of west>east. As much damage as the mongols did to Europe, they did 100 times that to everyone else. There can be no argument, in the middle ages, the Arabs, Mughels, and Chinese were all vastly superior to Europe; Charlemagne had nothing on the Abbasids. Then the Mongols, Seljuks, and other steppe peoples swept in and raped and pillaged everything in sight.

 

[Greek Stud]

Here's one that made it from China to Europe as a result of teh travcel made possible by the Mongols - pasta and spaghetti. Ramen is more or less teh direct ancestor of pasta in culinary terms.

rhialto, the pasta, gunpowder, printing press, silk exchange happened as a result of the Silk Road under the Roman (Byzantine) Empire. It wasn't Mongolian. That is why Silk is now produced in Lindos, Rhodes today. After the Empiror of Rome exchanged these technologies, he brought silk worm to Rhodes to compete with the Chinese. The Chinese Print Press was taken through Constantinople into Western Europe and for many years the West just stared at it, refusing to create a machine for their own languages. Are you relating the Mongol involvement with the Silk Road possibly instead of the actually exchange in technology?

 

[Greek Stud]

RichardMNixon

It's actually pretty scary how possible that is in today's world too. Many people that arent exposed to the dogma of war, even through interviews and insight find it hard to grasp that even Civil societies today are fragile. Imagine that only hand fulls of people have knowledge in critical matters or political matters. All it takes is for those people to disappear, and instability would ensue.

 

[Greek Stud]

Arabia had regions like the Abbasids and probably even Mali would be considered to be advanced in comparison to the West in the Middle Ages. But researchers and historians still believe that even in China's Industrial Age which was happening at the same time, that they would not have advanced much further in their isolation. Whether if it has to do with Communism, Natural Disasters, or other political factors, the Mongol invasions would not account for China latter falling behind.

One of the main reasons why it is important in the world today for all of us to stay in contact and have relations is to prevent this disparaty in technological advancement. Now today, even if something is invented in America, the entire world learns about it. Just, America uses economic strings to make certain technology available to certain people to keep our nation more advanced that the others. And the difference in technological advancement is not even so much that it would make that big of a difference. The strongest thing America has is the availablity of technology within our nation USA and the purchasing power the citizens of USA have in comparison to other current Civs.

 

[Hannabir]

Mostly because, while the "technical" limit between Africa and Asia is around Suez, practically speaking, Suez was MUCH less of a barrier than the Sahara. Egypt greatly influenced and traded with the other nations of the Mediteranean bassin and the Middle East ; conversedly, it had very little dealings with the rest of Africa.

Egypt had many dealings with Nubia and Ethiopia (including present-day Yemen).

 

[Evie]

Oh, not saying they had NOTHING to do with the rest of AFrica. Just sayign that, historically, Egypt is at least as much part of the mediteranean world as it was part of the African world.

 

[Fer de Lance]

Oh, not saying they had NOTHING to do with the rest of AFrica. Just sayign that, historically, Egypt is at least as much part of the mediteranean world as it was part of the African world.

and because of that, deny its africaness and bring it into the real civilized world. not to put too fine a point on it